Hi everyone! Today it's my pleasure to bring you our NSM's new automated submission system.
Over the past few months I've been developing our new submission system. It's main feature is that everything is automated, from submitting sheets, to accepting them and even an update queue. It should make the lives of our updaters a bit easier as we are no longer tied down with large submission threads. Our updaters also have a nice new sheet admin which means they can things on the site much more easily.
You can access all this from the new button in the forum's menu bar entitled "NSM Panel."
Have fun!
Awesome!
Now this looks like great news. There are, unfortunately, many examples of great sheets having been lost in long-since-deserted submission threads out there. The reviewing/uploading process has always been the great bottleneck of NSM, so I hope this speeds it up a bit.
I think I made a "reviving the sheets" project waaaaaay back when, trying to gather the remaining lost sheets in a single place for fix-ups and submitting. As far as I recall, it faded into obscurity after a while, though. Maybe a revival is in order?
Hey Cobra! You should pop by more often, we've missed you
Yep, I remember that thread, that's going back quite a while. But I agree, it's definitely worth reviving the revival thread.
This is fantastic! Thanks for the wondrous effort, Deku!
It seems like the forum has been restructured a bit since I was last active, and I cant remember where I put that thread.
Oh well, might as well make an entirely new one. I didn't rehost any of the old sheets, and I guess the various links have all expired by now. Any suggestions as to how to do it?
http://forum.ninsheetm.us/index.php?topic=4781.0
There was that thread, but I thought perhaps there was another thread?
I'm not really sure how to do it. Many of the mediafire links have disappeared thanks to their over-enthusiastic deletion of files. If you make the topic in the Arrangements & Submissions board I'll sticky it for you.
This is incredible. And awesome!
edit: do the songs already accepted for the last update still get in? Will I have to submit them, or will you or olimar?
Anything currently accepted is fine. You will not have to resubmit those.
This is fun, though I suppose this removes the need for the actual arrangers' threads outside of people wanting immediate feedback.
Not really. There is a limit of 2 submissions at the moment (it can be easily changed) which still means threads are needed. Also, there are people who arrange for other instrumentations or not for the site who might also want to share their arrangements.
It's essentially the same as an update thread, except without the constraints of having to go through all of it at once.
I (and certainly others) still have sheets in the old submission thread that haven't been accepted yet, do we have to resubmit those?
So what about the arrangement project
Cool new system :)
Anyone else having a problem with this?
I uploaded a midi mus and pdf but every time I click submit it says " No midi uploaded" it's starting to make me mad.....
Need help!
Is there any way to shrink the PDF size through some program or raise the attachment size limit? It's asking for 128kb or so, and my PDF alone is 133kb :(
Quote from: mariolegofan on October 15, 2014, 10:11:15 AMAnyone else having a problem with this?
I uploaded a midi mus and pdf but every time I click submit it says " No midi uploaded" it's starting to make me mad.....
Need help!
to quote your based olimar, "This isn't NinMidiMusic..."
Please no jokes. I'm kinda mad about this...and really want this to work
Will you need to make a separate submission for a duet and solo arrangement of the same piece?
Quote from: mariolegofan on October 15, 2014, 11:20:00 AMPlease no jokes. I'm kinda mad about this...and really want this to work
Ask Deku.
Quote from: maelstrom. on October 15, 2014, 11:25:26 AMWill you need to make a separate submission for a duet and solo arrangement of the same piece?
As of right now, yes.
I guess I'll hold off on submitting one of my arrangements until that is fixed.
Quote from: Meloetta on October 15, 2014, 10:25:59 AMIs there any way to shrink the PDF size through some program or raise the attachment size limit? It's asking for 128kb or so, and my PDF alone is 133kb :(
Limit raised. Sorry for the inconvenience.
Quote from: mariolegofan on October 15, 2014, 10:11:15 AMAnyone else having a problem with this?
I uploaded a midi mus and pdf but every time I click submit it says " No midi uploaded" it's starting to make me mad.....
Need help!
Hm, unfortunately I don't know the solution to this. Might have to wait for Deku to sort this one out. Sorry.
Quote from: K-NiGhT on October 15, 2014, 11:12:22 AM"This isn't NinMidiMusic..."
This is such a hilariously inappropriate response to the situation that it can only be trolling and you actually made my day xD
Quote from: DekuTrombonist on October 15, 2014, 03:58:22 AMhttp://forum.ninsheetm.us/index.php?topic=4781.0
There was that thread, but I thought perhaps there was another thread?
I'm not really sure how to do it. Many of the mediafire links have disappeared thanks to their over-enthusiastic deletion of files. If you make the topic in the Arrangements & Submissions board I'll sticky it for you.
Ahh, there it was, thanks for finding it!
Seems like I'd forgot the copyright issue, though. As NasiDe and Olimar pointed out in that thread, simply grabbing files from old arrangement threads and submitting them will be considered copyright infringement. Guess we'll have to make some sort of policy on that before we get the project rolling. I'll make the thread anyway, as that would be the most appropriate place to discuss it. But given what time it is here now, I think I'll wait until tomorrow...
So are there any of those "submit ur arrangements by next sunday before iy closes" kind of stuff anymore?
Quote from: maelstrom. on October 15, 2014, 11:31:05 AMI guess I'll hold off on submitting one of my arrangements until that is fixed.
Until what is fixed?
Quote from: Cobraroll on October 15, 2014, 03:19:14 PMAhh, there it was, thanks for finding it!
Yeah I guess that's an issue. Although some of the really old sheets were actually 'submitted' under the super old system, so perhaps they can be considered differently.
Quote from: mariolegofan on October 15, 2014, 11:20:00 AMPlease no jokes. I'm kinda mad about this...and really want this to work
I sent you a PM
Quote from: zoroark1264 on October 15, 2014, 04:18:48 PMSo are there any of those "submit ur arrangements by next sunday before iy closes" kind of stuff anymore?
Nope
Quote from: DekuTrombonist on October 15, 2014, 05:40:39 PMUntil what is fixed?
Until you are able to submit both a duet and solo arrangement of the same song at the same time. And it might make it eaiser on the updater if you added a place for a youtube link to the original song.
YouTube links might get added at some point in the future.
As for the duets thing, no. It would be a silly waste of time for me to try and make that work. And besides, they're still separate arrangements and would need to be edited separately and feedback would also be given separately.
OK. I guess I'll eventually get around to submitting them. And you might want to raise the limit for vet. arrangers...
Woo! At last!
Quote from: maelstrom. on October 15, 2014, 06:16:40 PMAnd you might want to raise the limit for vet. arrangers...
The veteran arranger thing never really took off as planned.
(Is correct formatting really that hard?) Don't be surprised if that member group disappears.
I forgot to ask, but with our arrangements sitting in the last submission thread.. do we resubmit those using the cool new system? Or will they be done old-fashioned-like for the last time?
Quote from: Olimar12345 on October 15, 2014, 05:57:45 AMAnything currently accepted is fine. You will not have to resubmit those.
Everything that was not accepted will need to be resubmitted through the new system. And a note for those of you who had arrangements looked at: it'd be faster for everyone if you'd revise your arrangement before simply resubmitting it.
Um so will there be new topics for each submission? Will they be deleted after the updates?
Yes there's a new topic for each submission. They get archived after they get accepted and then you can submit more sheets once they've been uploaded in an update.
By the way, has the uploading process been sped up since "the old days"? I seem to recall the uploaders having trouble finding time to actually do the uploads, because it was a time-consuming task. Is that being updated too now? A "click-and-it's-up" system would be ideal, but I suppose there are other ways to do it too. Especially since we have a tradition of announcing all site updates, listing off the uploads as they are being done (which is a smart move, since it makes every update very visible).
However, that tradition has a downside too. As far as I've understood, part of the reason why updates are so rare is that they are being done in one big process, with loads of uploads, then an announcement in one sitting. Splitting it up, such as already was being done with approvals and uploads, might ease the load on the uploaders a little.
For instance, and I'm hypothesizing here, a way of "hiding" uploaded arrangements, a sort of "limbo" to put uploaded files in so that big updates can be done in small batches. An uploader may upload, say, one single arrangement (or even just a single file) if he has ten minutes to spare, and it'll be put on site but not visible for regular users. After a while, across all uploaders and their ten-minute commitments to The Cause, there would have been enough files uploaded-but-not-visible for it to warrant a real annoumement. At that point, somebody could write the update text, make a new topic, and so on and so forth, then click on the "unhide" button and everything appears visible in an instant as the announcement is published. No need to do it all in one sitting, the uploading could be done in one big batch or sporadically across a few weeks, depending on how busy the uploaders are. It would also allow for sheets to be approved and instantly uploaded, guaranteeing a well-made sheet a spot in the next big update. Having a "backlog" of approved and uploaded sheets would also make an incentive to make updates at higher frequencies (at least we should push for 0.25 microhertz or more).
Pretty much all of that is supposed to be taken care of with this upgrade (hopefully).
man I've never been good at writing nice long replies...
The segmenting of everything in large submission threads was part of the reason I undertook to make this mod. It was just a frustrating system to deal with.
Once sheets are accepted (with a handy 'accept' button) they are moved into a queue. When an updater thinks there are enough, they can upload the queue to the site with the click of a button. It's also much easier for multiple updaters to work together at once because the discussion is really split up on a sheet-by-sheet basis.
Is there any possibility that the number of maximum submissions is increased? Maybe Veteran Arrangers could have 3 or 4 submissions.
Quote from: Olimar12345 on October 15, 2014, 08:13:52 PMThe veteran arranger thing never really took off as planned. (Is correct formatting really that hard?) Don't be surprised if that member group disappears.
Oh man....I was looking forward to the vet arranger thing...
I wanna keep the veteran arrangers thing because I like the black name and the big stars :3 But I do think there's a way to interpret it into this new system, like submission raise.
That, or veteran arrangers could be like semi-updaters. Fierce and I got the title because we make arrangements without too much flaws, so we know what to fix in other arrangers' submissions. We wouldn't be able to upload them, though. When everything's fixed, a button could be made to send it to actual updaters for a second opinion on the sheet, so they can accept it. This could save updaters some time.
Just an idea, though.
Quote from: Bloop on October 16, 2014, 07:35:37 AMVeteran arrangers could be like semi-updaters. Fierce and I got the title because we make arrangements without too much flaws, so we know what to fix in other arrangers' submissions. We wouldn't be able to upload them, though. When everything's fixed, a button could be made to send it to actual updaters for a second opinion on the sheet, so they can accept it. This could save updaters some time.
Just an idea, though.
I do like that idea. It would save time and sheets would be processed faster. But more responsibility gets added to the VA title then so VAs must be worthy. :P
Quote from: Cobraroll on October 16, 2014, 04:08:15 AMPost.
In my experience, though the actual uploading process was tedious, the most time consuming part was (and is) the actual reviewing of arrangements.
Quote from: Bloop on October 16, 2014, 07:35:37 AMThat, or veteran arrangers could be like semi-updaters. Fierce and I got the title because we make arrangements without too much flaws, so we know what to fix in other arrangers' submissions. We wouldn't be able to upload them, though. When everything's fixed, a button could be made to send it to actual updaters for a second opinion on the sheet, so they can accept it. This could save updaters some time.
Just an idea, though.
That idea has loads of potential.
Quote from: Bloop on October 16, 2014, 07:35:37 AMI wanna keep the veteran arrangers thing because I like the black name and the big stars :3 But I do think there's a way to interpret it into this new system, like submission raise.
That, or veteran arrangers could be like semi-updaters. Fierce and I got the title because we make arrangements without too much flaws, so we know what to fix in other arrangers' submissions. We wouldn't be able to upload them, though. When everything's fixed, a button could be made to send it to actual updaters for a second opinion on the sheet, so they can accept it. This could save updaters some time.
Just an idea, though.
I also agree.
I've known about this for a while but it just hit me how great this is :D
Lol yeah, I feel like giving up on the whole VA thing before many people become qualified kinda defeats the purpose. Raising the limit seems like a reasonable adaptation. As for the semi-updater thing, I feel like Bloop and I already kinda do that informally via private feedback (well, I did before I kinda disappeared from the face of the earth), so it wouldn't really change what I do all that much when I'm actually active. There are a few concerns I have with this idea, though:
-If we add VA evaluation as a mandatory part of the submissions process, while it has the potential to speed things up considerably on the updaters' end (as major issues would likely be weeded out, or at least identified, by that point), it also has the potential to bog things up, just as requiring multiple updaters' approval has in the past.
-If we don't make it mandatory, it just seems like a wishy-washy appropriation of the title. Like, "Congrats on your consistently high quality arrangements! Now go ahead and fix other people's sheets, if you want, I guess"
-Not that personal arrangement threads are always the best spots for workshopping sheets, but many arrangers could possibly begin to bypass that altogether, and start submitting less prepared sheets, as some of the people who were giving them that advice in the past would now be focused on the actual submissions process.
-If this remains the only feature of the position, it seems very arbitrary. Those who don't hold the position would still be able to give feedback on others' pieces (as they should), so it'd basically just be like naming us "senior advice-givers". While I have full confidence in Bloop's (and decent confidence in my own) ability to help people fix up sheets, you put us at this position because we can make our own arrangements with very few (or sometimes no) fixes necessary, in the first place. If we don't take advantage of that with at least a raised limit on submissions, then it really is just a title.
Question, though: when you say you can submit more sheets after your existing submissions are accepted, does this mean that they apply (or are able to apply) to the same update, or does this just mean getting a head start on the next one? If it's the former, it seems like it'd be very difficult to maintain equal consideration for all arrangers' submissions, even if updaters cut out an arbitrary "I will spend __ time on each person's arrangements per update".
I think what this new system does is just put everybody's submissions in a queue for the updaters to go over, first come first served. Once they see 10/15/20 arrangements have been reviewed and approved, then they make them public.
I could be wrong, but this all still seems to be at the whim on when the updaters will actually be able to do some updating.
I'm so glad someone else said that because now I can just agree without having to be the person who always brings up the negative aspects
Quote from: MaestroUGC on October 16, 2014, 02:13:45 PMI could be wrong, but this all still seems to be at the whim on when the updaters will actually be able to do some updating.
Yes it does. But now it will be easier to go over the sheets one at a time, and it will be easier for the arranger to know there is feedback available.
Quote from: FierceDeity on October 16, 2014, 02:09:18 PMQuestion, though: when you say you can submit more sheets after your existing submissions are accepted, does this mean that they apply (or are able to apply) to the same update, or does this just mean getting a head start on the next one?
Just two per person until the update.
I agree with Fierce on the VA thing :)
Nice Speech :P
Still though this system is very nice and eliminates the hassle of the giant submission thread. I just don't see what it's good for besides that.
Well for one discussing arrangements will be much easier for staff and arrangers.
Checking sheets was always at the whim of the updaters, a problem that, of course, will always remain.
Quote from: DekuTrombonist on October 16, 2014, 03:41:04 PMChecking sheets was always at the whim of the updaters, a problem that, of course, will always remain.
True, but having Bloop and Fierce look over them too will take a load off of the updaters shoulders.
Hey, so I uploaded a sheet using the new system, but I am having a problem. I made a small change to the end of the sheet, but when I go to nsm panel --> edit, and I try to submit my updated files, I keep getting a database error. Any ideas why? It also appears to have removed the original links, so I had to post ones from dropbox. What should I do about this? :(
It happens every time, they all become blueberries.
I'll look into it this evening. That'll teach me to try and fix things just before midnight... ::)
Sweet thank you.
All fixed. I added the files from the dropbox links back into your submission as well.
Awesome! Thank you so much! :)
Quote from: SlowPokemon on October 16, 2014, 03:20:57 PMStill though this system is very nice and eliminates the hassle of the giant submission thread. I just don't see what it's good for besides that.
Exactly, you don't see it as the majority of the benefits only appear on the updating side. Previously, an updater had to collect submissions to a topic, download all the files, type the info for the sheets in the uploader along with uploading the files and then collect all the arrangements to an update post. With the new system, all he has to do is click accept on the submitted arrangements and once enough arrangements have been accepted, hit the update button to publish everything with an automated news post generation. Different updaters can also check sheets separately without needing to figure out who uploads what. Also, all the submitted files are stored on our server, so there's no need to use Mediafire or anything. The links don't expire, so we don't have that problem anymore (more about that in the Abandoned Arrangements thread).
The maximum number of submissions is also something we can adjust. Right now it's a matter of figuring out what is a reasonable number. Leave it too low and people get frustrated that they cannot submit as much as they want. Set it too high and it might happen that the updaters cannot handle all the submitted arrangements in a reasonable time. Again, frustration. I'd like some patience from you guys as this whole thing stabilizes and we figure out how it's going to be.
So yeah, the new system has lots of benefits, even though they might not be that visible. However, as Olimar mentioned, the actual checking is still the more time-consuming process and no upload system can assist in that. Essentially, arrangers want to be able to get their arrangements on the site. People want to see frequent updates. Said updates also shouldn't contain incorrect sheets. There are the problems we should find the solutions to with the limited resources we have. We have tried several methods in the past, for example requiring multiple updaters to check an arrangement (as it turns out, not a good idea). Veteran Arrangers were one such solution.
So to touch on the Veteran Arranger issue and FierceDeity's post, giving up on VAs might defeat their purpose. However, do they even have a purpose at this point? If not, there are two options: Create a purpose, or scrap the idea. By giving veteran arrangers a larger limit, we might be able to increase the updating frequency by having relatively more "easier-to-check" arrangements at the cost of possibly frustrating other arrangers who don't get to submit as much. Having mandatory VA checks might result in problems, just like the multiple updaters policy did. If they do it voluntarily, then is there really a point to having a specific title, if they'd do it anyway?
The current notion among the staff seems to be that VAs were just a failed experiment that has lived past its purpose. Maybe removing the whole thing is the best solution. Or we could be wrong. Generally, I try to listen to the feedback posted on the forums and the in the staff discussions to figure something out. Sometimes I decide wrong, but that's life.
The thing I like about this system is that a user who isn't on the forums can still go to the submissions board to see sheets that might be on the site in the future. In that regard it's very nice.
I don't think we should be so swift in getting rid of the Vetarans. Vetarans should be able to get more sheets on since they're better. So we can get more quality sheets on the site faster.
You know, now that he mentions it, what makes any of the veterans less capable of checking a sheet than a moderator? It could probably speed up the process if veterans did it in their free time. I'm not trying to delegate here, I would be willing to volunteer to check sheets if that would be helpful. But there's no reason only the mods should be checking sheets if there are veterans who by definition have a decent understanding of music theory.
We could also get more mods?
Veteran arranger->mod
Quote from: SlowPokemon on October 17, 2014, 07:52:41 AMThe thing I like about this system is that a user who isn't on the forums can still go to the submissions board to see sheets that might be on the site in the future. In that regard it's very nice.
Well... it has always been like that, actually. I think many people have been drawn to NSM after discovering where the sheets on the main page were made, going to the sheet factory known as the Submissions board on the forums, and seeing all the cool stuff that would feature in later updates...
...or, in some cases, fall into obscurity. I especially remember this awesome Butter Building sheet from SSBB that I found on my first guest-trip into the forum. It never made it to the site. Incidents like this is one of the main reasons why I think there should be a "safety net" for finished sheets on this site, to prevent waste of good work.
Maybe VA's can be potential new updaters, but that does come with a lot of responsibility. Or like the semi-updater thing I said, but without the double-check-thing and make VA's be able to accept sheets, but not to upload them. More updaters and/or VA's results in faster arrangement checks and thus faster updates.
I personally make have free time, but I never found the motivation to check sheets. However, if can help with updating, I do have that kind of motivation I need.
The moderators want to speed up the upload process, and some of us want to keep a purpose for VA's. I think this is a pretty good way to implement both of that. If needed, VA's can be checked on how we check sheets, and if it's sufficient enough to be an "accepter" (new title?), we can be one.
(this is partly what slow said I guess. still sayin' it)
(EDIT: also what nocturne said.)
Good idea Bloop and Slow :)
Yeah. I also think Jompa would be great as a sheet checker, but I don't think he would want to do that.
I can say that Jompa and fierce have given me the best, clearest, and most specific feedback other than an updater
Quote from: maelstrom. on October 17, 2014, 10:58:23 AMYeah. I also think Jompa would be great as a sheet checker, but I don't think he would want to do that.
Quite the opposite. Jompa told me he doesnt have time to arrange BUT would love to check sheets. Maybe he said that just about mine but I'm pretty sure he wouldnt mind checking sheets.
and I dont Fierce would mind checking. Hes very helpful and one heck of a guy :)
Quote from: Jamaha on October 17, 2014, 07:07:10 AMBy giving veteran arrangers a larger limit, we might be able to increase the updating frequency by having relatively more "easier-to-check" arrangements at the cost of possibly frustrating other arrangers who don't get to submit as much.
On the offchance that people would actually be frustrated by our increased submission limit (which is really even more balanced than our original idea for VA-only updates), I can only hope they'd consider it a fair trade-off if we were also obligated to help with updates. Despite my previously stated concerns with the idea, I'm still totally willing to do it. A benefit that I didn't mention earlier is that, unlike with individual "recommendations" we could make earlier, where people could just say "eh I'll just submit it and see what happens", arrangers would now actually have to fix the things we point out before sending it to updaters. This would certainly alleviate one of my reservations about giving feedback, as I'd no longer have to think "Is this person actually going to change anything, or will this all be for nothing?" (and yes, the latter has happened multiple times).
An idea to get around the "bogging up" I mentioned earlier considering a requirement for multiple people to give their OK on a sheet: we could give VAs a smaller checklist of things to fix, so we're not just "updaters but less final/reliable". This way, updaters wouldn't have to concern themselves with simpler things such as formatting errors and incorrect notes, and could actually spend time on things that are more complicated to fix. Granted, we could still make recommendations for those other things, but this would be more of a "note to the updaters" sort of thing.
Quote from: maelstrom. on October 17, 2014, 10:58:23 AMI can say that Jompa and fierce have given me the best, clearest, and most specific feedback other than an updater
Quote from: mariolegofan on October 17, 2014, 11:26:28 AMand I dont Fierce would mind checking. Hes very helpful and one heck of a guy :)
Oh, stop it, you ;)
Obviously nobody can speak for Jompa better than Jompa himself, but I suspect his reservation about doing this would be the monotony of dealing with transcriptions, rather than arrangements (because really, what we do for NSM are transcriptions). Ultimately though, that's for him (and the mods) to decide.
Great! I love it. Now to actually get Finale and submit the stuff I've arranged.... :D
I've made 3 or so arrangements but never got them past the "I can play it but it's not gonna get submitted" stage.
Honestly, do VA have to have a purpose? Is there anything wrong with it just being for bragging rights? The whole concept was for a completely different submission process that failed, so we don't need to feel forced to implement it into the new one.
The whole mini-modding idea is kinda silly. If they're capable of checking sheets, then make them updaters.
I agree with Fire, and if they are capable and willing to check sheets, this new system should make it easier to have people help speed the update process along. Theoretically, if we have 2 positioned updaters who'll check more sheets regularly and frequently (let's say about 6-8 in a single sitting) and 3-4 Vets who only check 1-2 sheets a week, we should have enough people working towards updates to have them happen once every two weeks. They won't be big updates, but 10/20/30 sheets uploaded a month is a pretty good pace and easy to keep up.
More if you guys give access to check sheets to more people as time passes.
Or we can just scale back the assumed duties of updaters, since this new system requires a few less steps for their job, to be just sheet checkers and make more people updaters.
I'm totally down with this mini-updater thing but I think any helping with the updates (by checking sheets and such) should be voluntary and not necessary for the title.
Updating seems like a pretty cool thing to do :3
I agree with you. It would sure help the updaters a lot. Why would they object?
Just freaking make them updaters, we don't need subordinate, half-assed "mini-updaters." The whole original concept was that experienced arrangers could bypass a lot of bureaucracy, but now that the bogged down system is completely gone, there's no need to offer shortcuts.
Updating is completely separate. If said people are capable of doing it, then by all means let them, but trying to creatively shoehorn in a now null and void idea is, quite frankly, frivolous.
tl;dr
Train fierce and bloop to be updaters.
Quote from: FireArrow on October 19, 2014, 04:52:28 PMJust freaking make them updaters, we don't need subordinate, half-assed "mini-updaters." The whole original concept was that experienced arrangers could bypass a lot of bureaucracy, but now that the bogged down system is completely gone, there's no need to offer shortcuts.
Updating is completely separate. If said people are capable of doing it, then by all means let them, but trying to creatively shoehorn in a now null and void idea is, quite frankly, frivolous.
tl;dr
Train fierce and bloop to be updaters.
thanks for the tl:dr
Quote from: FireArrow on October 18, 2014, 11:36:04 PMIs there anything wrong with it just being for bragging rights?
What's the point of the staff giving out bragging rights if it had nothing to do with bragging rights in the first place?
Quote from: JDMEK5 on October 19, 2014, 04:11:17 PMI'm totally down with this mini-updater thing but I think any helping with the updates (by checking sheets and such) should be voluntary and not necessary for the title.
Anyone and everyone can comment on any sheets. That's why the threads are publicly viewable, so that anyone can give feedback and we'd love it if lots more people would take advantage of that.
Quote from: FireArrow on October 19, 2014, 04:52:28 PMUpdating is completely separate.
Yes it is. Being added as a veteran arranger has nothing to do with whether or not we think someone should be an updater and the decision to make someone an updater will be made separately.
Quote from: DekuTrombonist on October 19, 2014, 06:00:30 PMWhat's the point of the staff giving out bragging rights if it had nothing to do with bragging rights in the first place?
A staff member personally giving you a title that says you're a good arranger is something worth bragging about. If you don't see any value in that because it doesn't offer any special privileges, then I don't know what to say.
QuoteYes it is. Being added as a veteran arranger has nothing to do with whether or not we think someone should be an updater and the decision to make someone an updater will be made separately.
Did you post this just to agree with me, or... ? Yeah, VA has nothing to do with the current system. The idea of making Fierce and Bloop updaters is in response to people saying that they should do it under the guise of a new position of power. If they're capable of checking sheets, then just freaking make them updaters. If they aren't, oh well.
I know it is something worth bragging about but that wasn't our intention, it was just a by-product of the idea behind making submissions go quicker. If from now on we're handing out titles purely for that purpose, then that's different.
I was kinda posting to agree, but also to add that our consideration for someone as an updater is separate to them being made veteran. A number of people seem to be conflating the two.
Quote from: DekuTrombonist on October 19, 2014, 07:38:45 PMI was kinda posting to agree, but also to add that our consideration for someone as an updater is separate to them being made veteran. A number of people seem to be conflating the two.
Obviously VAs would go through specialized training to become updaters. They aren't interchangable.
The next news post: Announcing the NSM Updater Academy! :P
Haha YES!! :P
Can I be that alumnus who's hanging around campus but graduated years ago but stays to keep hanging out with the teachers and giving unsolicited advice to the students. Yeah, I should be in college, but I'm going rogue, man. I'm living la vida loca, waiting for the world to understand my genius.
Quote from: DekuTrombonist on October 19, 2014, 07:38:45 PMI know it is something worth bragging about but that wasn't our intention, it was just a by-product of the idea behind making submissions go quicker. If from now on we're handing out titles purely for that purpose, then that's different.
I was kinda posting to agree, but also to add that our consideration for someone as an updater is separate to them being made veteran. A number of people seem to be conflating the two.
Yeah, we're saying the same thing with different words. :3
Guys, this is silly; we should just get rid of the VA positions. Their purpose has come and gone. If someone is qualified to be an updater and can+wants to, we can always work something out. I just don't see a practical situation that involves us keeping that member group around.
Thank you!!!
^Pretty much this. Let them keep their title though.
fine den
I understand why the VAs shouldn't be automatically promoted to updaters, but what's wrong with the mini-updater status? Basically, they'd check the sheets the same as the updaters, but they just wouldn't actually update anything onto the site
I'm still confused as to why we can't just up the submission limit :/
Like, our "purpose" was to get more sheets onto the site with considerably less effort on the updaters' part, and that's still just as doable with this system. We haven't outlived our purpose, you just haven't given us any chance to fulfill it yet. I fail to see any way that this new submissions system complicates our position.
Keep in mind, the plan before was to put our arrangements into separate updates. In comparison to that, there's no way people could possibly find a raised limit for VAs to be "unfair" to the other arrangers. It would have EXACTLY THE SAME EFFECT as what we originally intended: those whose sheets require less time to look over are able to get more arrangements through more quickly.
Whether we add any gimmicky roles or not, we haven't "outlived" anything.
This whole Veteran Arrangers thing is "outliving" its usefulness to me the longer I go without obtaining the position.
I really see no reason to have more updaters with the new system, since their work basically boils down to "press a button to upload, compile an announcement post". If I've understood the new system correctly, the uploading process is significantly faster now than it was before. The uploading itself is not where the problem lies.
If we want the entire process of updating sheets to go faster, we have to look at the entire system. Ideally, I'd add a flowchart here, but I think I can get the point across without one too:
Basically, the updating process is a multi-step process, starting with ideas/requests, then ending with "sheet on site, everybody happy". An arranger creates a rough draft for an arrangement, it is reviewed by peers (everybody who visits the arranger's thread), submitted, reviewed by "mods", and either approved and uploaded to site, or turned down for polishing. If the latter happens, the arranger has to fix what's wrong with it, and resubmit. I'd say the most important treshold of the system is the submission, where the sheets go from being the responsibility of the arranger to the responsibility of the site (represented by the mods). A turned-down submission will be sent back to the arranger for minor corrections, while an accepted one will make it to the site, as-is.
The process has a couple of bottlenecks, where the system is prone to "clogging" unless somebody puts in a great amount of work. Until this new system came online, the submission process has been such a bottleneck, where sheets could only make it from "finished arrangement" to "final review" through a somewhat tedious process involving threads that were opened very rarely, and closed shortly afterwards. However, it was never the only bottleneck, and now that it's fixed, the problem lies elsewhere.
What takes time is the reviewing process. Uploaders will spend a lot of time going through sheets to see if they meet the quality standards, and only then can they upload them or turn them down. One problem is the amount of imperfect sheets making it to the approval stage, because the peer review process, pre-submission, can be sloppy at times. If arrangements are given sufficient feedback before they're submitted, the uploaders will have a lot less work on their hands, and sheets will be uploaded more frequently.
Throwing more uploaders and more mods at the approval stage will help speed up that one stage, true, but it won't help much if all the competent "sheet reviewers" are tasked to concentrate on the post-submission stage instead of going to the arrangement threads themselves and give feedback there. Notably, at this stage anyone can help, regardless of mod status or uploader status or badges or bold letters or stars or post count or whatever. Go to the arranger's thread, help the fellow format his sheets properly, and then send it to submissions. Pre-submission, anybody can help reviewing, and the arranger decides when a sheet is good enough to submit. Post-submission, the mods/uploaders have to scrutinize it for mistakes, and the more perfect a sheet is at the point of submission, the easier it will be for the mods.
JaMaHa and DekuTrombonist have been concentrating their efforts on speeding up the post-submission part of the process, but there isn't much to be done about the pre-submission. It is the responsibility of the arranger, and his/her peers (that is, everybody) to make the sheet good before it's submitted. That's how we can speed things up. If we fix the problems with a sheet pre-submission, a lot of work in the post-submission stage can be saved. Pre-submission, we can all help. Post-submission, the work is split across only a handful of people.
Hmm... I'll see if I can make that flow chart later.
But the potential updaters are not giving that much feedback in the first place. I've only gotten help on 5 or 6 out of my 20 arrangements on my thread. Granted, they were mostly my earlier arrangements, from when I needed the most help.
Quote from: Bubbles on October 19, 2014, 09:43:48 PMI understand why the VAs shouldn't be automatically promoted to updaters, but what's wrong with the mini-updater status? Basically, they'd check the sheets the same as the updaters, but they just wouldn't actually update anything onto the site
I agree with Bubbles.
Here's proof the VAs are just as good as the updaters
Quote from: Bloop on October 19, 2014, 04:54:48 PMReally nice! Two small things I pointed out though:
-Chords in the left hand like bar 12 and 20 are very hard to play for me, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one. Maybe you could add parentheses on one of the notes to make it easier for the less-Liszt under us?
-You missed a repeat marking in the last bar. Hurdurhurblurderp.
lol.....Bloop seeing mistakes in Dekus work.....priceless!
Quote from: mariolegofan on October 20, 2014, 07:05:33 AMlol.....Bloop seeing mistakes in Dekus work.....priceless!
Um, Deku's not a god who never slips. That's the whole reason even Deku's arrangements need an approval from a second updater before being uploaded. I wouldn't say this proves anything. It's using a minority (a huge one) to measure a majority. You're going to need
way more data to prove something like that.
Quote from: JDMEK5 on October 20, 2014, 07:12:49 AMUm, Deku's not a god who never slips. That's the whole reason even Deku's arrangements need an approval from a second updater before being uploaded. I wouldn't say this proves anything. It's using a minority (a huge one) to measure a majority. You're going to need way more data to prove something like that.
Very True....but is that what I said? I only thought it humurous :)
I'M GONNA SAY EVERYTHING ABOUT EVERY UPDATER'S ARRANGEMENT
But nah I agree with JDMEK, everyone here is a human being (except for Zeta), so mistakes will always be there.
Quote from: Bloop on October 20, 2014, 07:15:49 AMI'M GONNA SAY EVERYTHING ABOUT EVERY UPDATER'S ARRANGEMENT
But nah I agree with JDMEK, everyone here is a human being (except for Zeta), so mistakes will always be there.
Didnt say Deku or Olimar
aren't capable of making mistakes. Again I just thought it humurous :)
Zeta....lol..
Looks like Vas are gone...
Im a little dissappointed though.
If they are gone it's only because someone like me wasn't part of it to give them status and credibility.
Misc. member groups aren't any trouble to create. If we find a good use for them, we can always use them in the future. It just doesn't look like it will work out at this point in time.
And you guys don't need a title for bragging rights, let your quality arrangements do that for you! ;)
In a way it's even more awesome bragging rights because it's like "yeah me and bloop were in that secret society of arrangers so incredible they had to disband it"
Zeta = God
Quote from: Olimar12345 on October 20, 2014, 07:58:22 AMAnd you guys don't need a title for bragging rights, let your quality arrangements do that for you! ;)
True, but it would be nice. It was a good motivation (for me anyway) to work to. But now that Vets. are gone.....what is there to work up to?
Quote from: SlowPokemon on October 20, 2014, 08:05:48 AMIn a way it's even more awesome bragging rights because it's like "yeah me and bloop were in that secret society of arrangers so incredible they had to disband it"
He's got a point...
Well you know, there's always the satisfaction of providing quality sheet music to the general public for free. People love what we do, whether or not you physically see it or not.
Quote from: mariolegofan on October 20, 2014, 08:25:45 AMTrue, but it would be nice. It was a good motivation (for me anyway) to work to. But now that Vets. are gone.....what is there to work up to?
I personally didn't work to it, and I don't think it was a thing to work onto. We're not arranging for a VA status, we're arranging for the site. Site is love, site is life.
Quote from: Bloop on October 20, 2014, 08:33:11 AMI personally didn't work to it, and I don't think it was a thing to work onto. We're not arranging for a VA status, we're arranging for the site. Site is love, site is life.
Quote from: Olimar12345 on October 20, 2014, 08:29:31 AMWell you know, there's always the satisfaction of providing quality sheet music to the general public for free. People love what we do, whether or not you physically see it or not.
I know guys! :)
I really like making people happy and providing arrangements from their favorite games :).....but nevertheless it was still a good motivational goal......for me anyway :)
Quote from: Bloop on October 20, 2014, 08:33:11 AMWe're not arranging for a VA status, we're arranging for the site.
Which is why we need more updaters so more arrangements can make it onto the site.
circular reasoning
Well now you've taken that quote out of it's context.
One thing to note: Most people will chose to review arrangements they are familiar with. It's not wrong, but it will be annoying to get more obscure pieces onto the site and help out that "Other" section
edit: Think of it like the request board.
I feel like this isn't affecting me much if not at all, because I'm arranging more for my practice than for the site.
And maybe add an incentive for replacing terrible sheets on the site, like everyone gets a free challenge arrangement. And maybe have an extra reward for those really bad sheets, like Angry Bowser and The Halberd. idk if this would take too much work, but Deku/Olimar could compile a list of really bad arrangements with a bounty for each. People could claim them, etc. This would probably take too much work, but if it replaces "The Halberd," it's a success.
Wow.....this got out of control....fast :P
Quote from: maelstrom. on October 20, 2014, 09:14:21 AMWhich is why we need more updaters so more arrangements can make it onto the site.
circular reasoning
I don't know if more updaters, but we surely need more people like Olimar or Deku who could give official approval on whether an arrangement is accepted or not. And the VA arranger status could be given to that people.
Granted, this system is a lot cleaner and simpler to the arranger, but I can totally see the arrangements being accepted at the same rate as with the old system, since Deku or Olimar still have to go through all the submissions to see if everything's correct. I'm just putting my two cents though.
Quote from: DonValentino on October 20, 2014, 12:14:28 PMGranted, this system is a lot cleaner and simpler to the arranger, but I can totally see the arrangements being accepted at the same rate as with the old system, since Deku or Olimar still have to go through all the submissions to see if everything's correct. I'm just putting my two cents though.
Well, this is theoretically where the Veteran Arrangers could have played a role. Or, well, everybody can, regardless of their membership status.
Folks, we've got a big subforum (http://forum.ninsheetm.us/index.php?board=36.0) for submitted sheets now, where everybody can discuss each individual submission. We can all go in there, look at the sheets, and voice our opinion on whether or not the submitted sheet is up to standard, pointing out the flaws, etc. If a respected and format-savvy arranger says "this is good enough" in big, bold letters, uploaders like Deku and Olimar could choose to trust the judgment of that person, and accept it after a quick glance. Likewise, if the sheet is turned down by a veteran or two, Deku and Olimar wouldn't have to bother checking the sheet. The Submissions Board allows for everybody to voice their opinion on very specific sheets, give feedback, and I'm pretty sure the uploaders will take the feedback into account when going through the queue.
In a regular arrangement thread, arrangers might put up five or ten sheets at a time, meaning that individual sheets won't enjoy much attention unless they're really well-known themes or otherwise particularly well done. In Submissions, however, there's only ONE sheet per thread. Each thread is dedicated to that song and that alone. A perfect format for feedback.
The Submissions board can be a great tool if we all start using it. Sure, Deku and Olimar have the main responsibility and carry the Official Stamp of Approval, but that doesn't mean they have to do all the checking alone. We're allowed ot voice our opinion too, and I know plenty of people here are as just as competent as D&O when it comes to judging sheets. You don't
have to be an uploader to spot mistakes in formatting, or the lack thereof. And with the aid of your judgement, D&O can get their job done faster. Which means more uploads.
I hope to see you all in the Submissions board!
Quote from: Olimar12345 on October 20, 2014, 07:58:22 AMAnd you guys don't need a title for bragging rights, let your quality arrangements do that for you! ;)
I'm smiling right now because of how corny this is. :J
Your right, but I mean, this could be a plot line for a Disney Movie.
Quote from: FireArrow on October 20, 2014, 08:20:30 PMI'm smiling right now because of how corny this is. :J
Your right, but I mean, this could be a plot line for a Disney Movie.
lol....you're right :)
Let's just say it like it is, Veteran Arrangers are my second-worst idea that actually became implemented to NSM, pulling a close second to Orchestral Arrangements ;D
But wasn't it maestro's idea?
Yes. Blame it on him!
Still, it was something that would have benefited the old submission method, however our staff was preoccupied with pushing NSM forward to the new submission method, so it never got to spread it's wings. That's fine though.
And Olimar, orchestral arrangements weren't my idea either, I think it was dahans' idea? Still, both ideas had my full support, and I guess that's what I was referring to.
I'm late, but this is really awesome!!
Submitting replacement arrangements doesn't work. It keeps saying "you need to select a sheet to replace". The answer to "Which sheet would you like to replace?" is a text box so I really don't know what I'm supposed to put in there. I think it shouldn't be a text box. For now should I just say it's not a replacement?
Read the guide in the submission board.