NinSheetMusic Forums

I couldn't help but notice how many theory related questions we've gotten lately, so I thought, "Why not make a thread for stuff like that?".

So here it is. If you have any questions about key signatures, time signatures, clefs, voicing, etc.; here's where you ask.

The IMSLP/Petrucci Music Library (http://imslp.org/wiki/) is a great place to explore some things discussed here.

If someone else who has an idea for a topic and knows about it can put one together themselves if I haven't gotten to it already.
If you make your own, I ask that you include a wikipedia link somewhere inside. (If possible, at least)

Topics:
Rhythm Groupings (http://www.ninsheetm.us/smf/index.php?topic=4845.msg168866#msg168866) by JDMEK5
Time Signatures (http://www.ninsheetm.us/smf/index.php?topic=4845.msg169505#msg169505) by JDMEK5

so does that mean that i could post my homework here so that you could all do it for me
just a warning, im going to be posting here a lot

So anyway, I have a question about beaming.  Let's say that one is given an E, B, and E triplet.  How far should the stems to?  In this case, it's Treble Clef, the E's are both high and the B is in the middle; should I extend them all to the length of the B's stem or the E's stem?  Sorry if I was unclear.  It's not really important, probably, but just curious.

Quote from: Mashi on September 12, 2012, 01:52:40 PMso does that mean that i could post my homework here so that you could all do it for me

That wasn't exactly the point of this whole thing...
It was actually intended for stuff like ... this (http://www.ninsheetm.us/smf/index.php?topic=4619.0).
You get a point for curiosity though.

Quote from: Mashi on September 12, 2012, 01:52:40 PMLet's say that one is given an E, B, and E triplet.  How far should the stems to?  In this case, it's Treble Clef, the E's are both high and the B is in the middle; should I extend them all to the length of the B's stem or the E's stem?  Sorry if I was unclear.  It's not really important, probably, but just curious.

The stem of the note should go up if the note is lower than the middle line. It goes down if it is on the middle line or higher.
Traditionally, the stem goes exactly an octave above/below the note (depending on where the note is).
(https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1147.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo555%2FJDMEK5%2Fth_QuarterNote.png&hash=c694ec58d3b1963c872f6a304c3787e9f30f0f11)
Note how the end of the stem is exactly on the high E. Exactly one octave above the played note.

Going back to your triplet; since the first note is exactly the same as the last, the bar goes straight across horizontally.
No stem is ever cut down; only extended. So if the E is higher than the B, the stem of the E would extend to match the B.
(https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1147.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo555%2FJDMEK5%2Fth_TripletExample.png&hash=6bf5361dc196d29cd9c93ba39cab7bf780103e1a)

Does that satisfy your question?

Yes, it did, thanks!

Posting because want learn.

Posting to offer my understanding of the subject as laid before me by my Masters of Western Music.

Quote from: MaestroUGC on September 12, 2012, 03:15:20 PMPosting to offer my understanding of the subject as laid before me by my Masters of Western Music.

Glad to accept the help.

Alright. So every so often, I'm going to put together a little topic and make a list containing all the topics so far.

If someone else who has an idea for a topic and knows about it can put one together themselves at that point. (Guidelines for doing so are on the original post)

So the first topic will be on a recent question:


The timing for a 4/4 time is: "1-and-2-and-3-and-4-and"
(Each number is worth a quarter note; the "ands" represent subdivision (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meter_(music)#Metric_structure))
The pulse for a 4/4 time is: "Strong-and-Weak-and-Medium-and-Weak-and"

Rules:
1) A strong beat can stand for any number of medium and/or weak beats. (Within that measure)
(E.g., a whole note)

2) A medium can stand for any number of weak beats but not strong beats.
(E.g., a half note on beat 3)

3) A weak beat can't stand for anything besides itself. (Not even another weak)
(E.g., a quarter note on beats 2 and/or 4)

4) Off-beats can always be represented by the beat to the left and can't stand for anything besides themselves.

If you want a half note on beat 2, you need to tie two quarter notes. Because, if not, you'd have a weak beat standing for a medium.
(https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1147.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo555%2FJDMEK5%2Fth_RhythmGroupingcomparisonexample.png&hash=c4999aa68a6a05ef8d11857b9f9d5d1dbfdc8276)
The top staff is an example of correct notation, while the bottom is an example of incorrect notation.

"Ands" cannot stand for anything besides themselves. (Golden rule)

This isn't really that serious a topic; I've seen many sheets by professional arrangers write it incorrectly to make it cleaner.
(You can only go so far however)
But if you're taking an exam, you can't skip this. It really helps more when you're in a hybrid time.

I need to learn to transpose (not sure if this is the correct word) rhythmic notations for a test tomorrow.  Are there any strategies or sites or anything that anyone has that I may use?

You mean transpose for different instruments? Like a trumpet in Bb for example?

I think he means transcribe. Transposition deals will pitch, whereas transcription deals with the written music, presentation, under which rhythmic notation falls under.

i am music expert

Yes, I meant transcribe, my mistake!

Oh. I don't suppose what you mean I dealt with earlier? You know, that "Rhythm Grouping" section?

This thread is all about how music works, and this is important for understanding this ancient art known as Music.

Here (http://www.ninsheetm.us/smf/index.php?topic=4773.0) we look at how it all works in action. We won't be focusing so much on the theory itself, but we will be looking at pieces that both defined these ideas and tropes, as well as those that broke these rules that you all are so keen to learn.

We look at the history behind it all, discovering where these ideas originated from and how they shaped Western Music into the forms we all know and love today.

I just took a look at the history of the Symphony, which is one of Western Music's Supreme forms, and we are looking at the 9 Beethoven Symphonies right now.

Quote from: JDMEK5 on September 13, 2012, 08:06:14 PMOh. I don't suppose what you mean I dealt with earlier? You know, that "Rhythm Grouping" section?

Not exactly.  I mean, being able to hear a rhythm and right it down.  I know the manner in which the notes should be connected, grouped, beamed, and the like, but I have trouble determining length quickly enough when a musical excerpt is played.

Practice, just practice.

Find some scores on imslp.org, listen to the music and try to dictate the rhythm and then compare. Do in groups of 4-8 bars and try music from all periods.

I recommend putting a link to IMSLP (http://imslp.org/wiki/) in the OP. It's a fantastic resource for all manners of sheet music and would do well for providing examples of the things we look at here.

Done.

Oh man I love IMSLP. I can't believe it's not illegal, with copyright and all that.

It's because most of the sheets on that site were either published before 1920 (for us here in the US, anyway) or their publishers have long since gone, sending the scores out of print without renewing the contracts. Since it's based in Canada (meaning that's where their servers are), their copyright laws work differently so they just need to monitor who's downloading what from where.

Everyone should know a thing or two about time signatures. Here I'll skim over a few common (and not-so-common) meters.

Simple Time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signatures#Simple_time_signatures)

4/4 time (Common time) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signatures#Most_frequent_time_signatures) - Common time is another name for 4/4 time, which indicates that there are 4 (numerator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerator)) quater notes (denominator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denominator)) per measure.
These days, common time is used most of the time. The biggest exception is in church music, in which case it is written out as 4/4.
(I don't believe it's mandatory, but I would do the same for requiems (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Requiem))
Sample Piece: (Bleh, we don't need a sample piece)
Common time is used the vast majority of the time, and falls into the category of "simple time" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signatures#Simple_time_signatures).

3/4 time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signatures#Most_frequent_time_signatures) - Another common time signature, 3/4 is sometimes referred to as the "Waltz Beat". Every single waltz in the world and minuet for the most part is in 3/4 time.
Pulse: {Strong, Weak, Weak}*; with three quarter notes to a measure.
Sample Piece: Super Mario World - Underwater (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHCBzTsg854)
3/4 time falls into the category of "compound time" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signatures#Compound_time_signatures).

2/4 time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signatures#Most_frequent_time_signatures) - Usually a fast-paced meter, 2/4 indicates two quarter notes per measure. Usually a polka beat, or other such styles that are heavily syncopated (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syncopation#Off-beat_syncopation).
To tell the difference between 4/4 and 2/4 is just a matter of listening. Either to how long each measure should be, or the pulse.
Sample Piece: Mario Kart Wii - Wario's Gold Mine (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm_-vcOEFmM)
2/4 also falls into the category of "simple time" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signatures#Simple_time_signatures).

2/2 time (Cut time) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signatures#Most_frequent_time_signatures) - Indicates 2 half notes to a measure. The pulse is the same as common time, but the counting is: 1-ee-and-a-2-ee-and-a. (That's how I was taught anyways)
Sample Piece: N/A
Cut time falls into "simple time" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signatures#Simple_time_signatures).

Compound Time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signatures#Compound_time_signatures)

3/8, 6/8, and 12/8 time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signatures#Most_frequent_time_signatures) - This would most likely be your jazz beats. 3/8 indicates 3 eighths to a measure, 6/8 indicates 6 eighth notes to a measure, etc.
Pulse goes similar to 3/4; {Strong, weak, weak}, (optional bar line) {medium, weak, weak}, (optional bar line) {medium-strong, weak, weak}, {medium, weak, weak}*.
Sample Piece: Super Mario 3D Land - Jazzy Overworld (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjAQO5EVt6g)

9/8 time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signatures#Most_frequent_time_signatures) - 9/8 has 9 eighths to the measure, all broken down into sets of 3
Pulse for 9/8: Strong, weak, weak, medium, weak, weak, medium, weak, weak*.
Sample Piece: Pokémon R/S/E - Sootopolis City (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrD3NWaDlXA)
9/8 isn't really all that common, but can be used in just about any style of music.

Hybrid Time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signatures#Complex_time_signatures)

Hybrid times are weird. The pulse grouping may vary to certain degrees depending on the meter.

5/4 time - That's right. 5 quarter notes to a measure.         (Group o' 3)                (Group o' 2)
Pulse: One group of 3, and one group of 2. (example: {Strong, weak, weak}, {medium, weak}*) (Pulse groups could be switched. Becoming: {Strong, weak}, {medium, weak, weak})
Sample Piece: Donkey Kong Country Returns - Rocket Barrel (Theme 1) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hiy7fqHEeo4)
Very uncommon, but still used. Always be ready for something like that.

7/4 time - 7 quarter notes to a measure.
Pulse: One group of 3, and; either two groups of 2, or one group of 4*. (e.g: {Strong, weak, weak}, {medium, weak}, {medium, weak})
Sample Piece: The Legend Of Zelda: Ocarina Of Time - Credits (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPjLgDF1hUg) (first few measures) (I know, not the best example, but it was the best I could do. :-\)

9/8 time (Hybrid Quadruple) - Like the 'orthodox' 9/8, there's 9 eighth notes per measure.
The difference is the pulse: Usually one group of 3, and three groups of 2; but groups can be fused, and/or switched around.
Sample Piece: N/A
It does exist; however, if you see a 9/8 time, assume it's the other one.

10/8 time - 10 eighths per measure.
Pulse: Two groups of 3, and two groups of 2*. Again, groups can be fused and/or moved.
Sample Piece: Super Mario Galaxy - Kingfin/Bouldergeist (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFWde1hv3-M) (Bass section)

11/8 - Eleven eights per measure.
Pulse: Three groups of 3, and one group of 2*. Groups may be fused and/or switched.
Sample Piece: Mario Kart 64 - Results (Win) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVdxrERxQo8)

All of your Hybrid Times' pulses are incorrect. The only definate strong beat is 1-that's the fun of them-for example:
I can have a 7/8 piece feel multiple ways; 3+2+2, 2+2+3, and 2+3+2.

I actually got those pulses straight from my piano teacher a few years ago.

I listed what is most usually the default pulse. Yes, different variations exist, but that's how (I would expect) it is for the vast majority of the time.
Just like you can syncopate the off-beat of any common time piece, emphasizing an abnormal beat is perfectly fine and legal; it just gives it a different feel.

Quote from: Olimar12345 on September 18, 2012, 05:40:55 PMThe only definate strong beat is 1-that's the fun of them-for example:
I can have a 7/8 piece feel multiple ways; 3+2+2, 2+2+3, and 2+3+2.

In all your examples you have 3 groups: 2 groups of 2, and 1 group of 3. The first beat of every one of those groups is stronger than the second or third. The group in the middle of the measure is stronger than the second and fourth groups. (Assuming there is a fourth group)

Did I address what you meant? Or did I miss something?

Not entirely-in common time, you call it "syncopating the off-beat" because you have strong beats to relate them to. In composite time signatures, the strong beats are relative to the piece-7/8 isn't always counted the same way.

How about examples of songs in each time signature, to help the inexperienced musician to understand better? Maybe even from video games, to appeal to our audience?

For instance, what about posting something like....

Sootopolis City (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmMT6Pz0vqw) is an example of a song in 9/8.
Team Skull (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDp2hoCyJCo) is an example of a song in 12/8.

etc.

Quote from: SlowPokemon on September 19, 2012, 07:07:41 PMHow about examples of songs in each time signature, to help the inexperienced musician to understand better? Maybe even from video games, to appeal to our audience?

For instance, what about posting something like....

Sootopolis City (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmMT6Pz0vqw) is an example of a song in 9/8.
Team Skull (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDp2hoCyJCo) is an example of a song in 12/8.

etc.

I like that. Consider it done. ... But.. I don't actually know that many songs with unusual time signatures... Maybe you could help list a few?

Quote from: Olimar12345 on September 19, 2012, 05:41:18 PMNot entirely-in common time, you call it "syncopating the off-beat" because you have strong beats to relate them to. In composite time signatures, the strong beats are relative to the piece-7/8 isn't always counted the same way.

Right. Gotcha.

"Result 1 Win" by Kenta Nagata from Mario Kart 64 is in 11/8.

Sayonara (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-vYBP2uAOI) by Shota Kageyama from Pokemon Black and White (known commonly under the fan name "N's Farewell") is in 6/8.

Musical Hall (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVEW6G4exU4) by Shota Kageyama from Pokemon Black and White is in 3/4 and is a great example of a classical waltz.

More later

Quote from: Bespinben on September 19, 2012, 07:19:33 PM"Result 1 Win" by Kenta Nagata from Mario Kart 64 is in 11/8.

Right. Thanks!

Quote from: SlowPokemon on September 19, 2012, 07:22:18 PMSayonara (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-vYBP2uAOI) by Shota Kageyama from Pokemon Black and White (known commonly under the fan name "N's Farewell") is in 6/8.

Musical Hall (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVEW6G4exU4) by Shota Kageyama from Pokemon Black and White is in 3/4 and is a great example of a classical waltz.

Sorry. Already found some for those. I'm going to leave the examples with the most obvious feel. So I think the ones already up stay.

There's still more to fill though!

Only enough time to post a little bit:
Here are some pieces in 5/4:
VG:
-The Waterwraith is coming! (3+2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flF9q2JsQkg
 
Not VG:
-Mars, the Bringer of War (3+2)
http://youtu.be/Pw0jvqx1mNU


Here are some pieces in 7/8:
Not VG:
-Rikudim Mmt. III (3+2+2)
http://youtu.be/V2gF09xOR0M

-Sleigh Ride(arrangement by John Eidsvoog) (2+2+3)
http://youtu.be/-ZggJNsAuIw

moar soon

If they are VG songs, can you leave the name of the game they're from?

Rocket Barrel from Donkey Kong Country Returns is also (partly) in 5/4:

I'm still slightly confused about the necessity of splitting up notes.

Which one is more acceptable? Assuming I did it right. I'm pretty sure I did.
(https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg651.imageshack.us%2Fimg651%2F6624%2Fasdffs.png&hash=49fa2f1fcdff44b9ac5f158e3fc266c779f4fa6d)

(https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg856.imageshack.us%2Fimg856%2F6281%2Ffdsaaa.png&hash=08f736a14f4311f574f48b208e70f6451c21bb52)

Top one, you must always show each beat clearly.

Quote from: Mephistopheles on November 12, 2012, 05:11:08 PMTop one, you must always show each beat clearly.

Mephistopheles, master of deals and music theory. :P

Who would've thought?

Sigh. It's so much harder to read that. Okay, thanks.

Oh, that first tied eighth-quarter on beat 2 should be a dotted eigth. The tie is superfluous.

But it starts on a sixteenth beat's spot. Wouldn't it not be able to go over an eighth note's spot? Or does it really not matter beyond eighths?

Most times, some exceptions will be made to make the sheet cleaner. Technically, the top one is correct, but as Maestro said, for the most part, 16ths can be joined directly to a dotted eighth. (assuming they're in the same beat)

Because dotted eighths can be joined to a 16th, it's simple to remember that the reverse is also acceptable. (except in exams!)

Is there a proper way to use different durations in grace notes? I've always used eighth notes if there was a single grace note and sixteenth notes if there were 2 or more.

What you're doing is correct. Grace note length is no more than looks. It would look odd to have a quarter leading into a note as well as a string of eighths.

Hi I've found some great sample pieces for various time signatures.

2/2 (Cut time):
Super Mario RPG - Forest Maze
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkailb3xcTI

Final Fantasy IV - Red Wings' Theme
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbQyqX9iu_M

5/4:
Skylanders Giants - Junkyard Isles Main Theme
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1zCnBZdFpI&
(Could be felt as 10/8 too)

7/4:
Final Fantasy IV - Esper World
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79fe0wNariU

9/8
The Legend of Zelda Wind Waker - Main Theme
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPDCHr3H_Hw

We should but this thread under the Help! > NSM Resources thread. Would be smart I think.

Another great example of 5/4
An Earnest Desire of Grey (Radiant Historia) (On site, arranged by me)

Best example of 5/4 will always be mission impossible

Quote from: JDMEK5 on September 18, 2012, 05:30:34 PM3/8, 6/8, and 12/8 time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signatures#Most_frequent_time_signatures) - This would most likely be your jazz beats. 3/8 indicates 3 eighths to a measure, 6/8 indicates 6 eighth notes to a measure, etc.
Pulse goes similar to 3/4; {Strong, weak, weak}, (optional bar line) {medium, weak, weak}, (optional bar line) {medium-strong, weak, weak}, {medium, weak, weak}*.
Sample Piece: Super Mario 3D Land - Jazzy Overworld (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjAQO5EVt6g)

I'm sorry, but I must protest. Jazzy Overworld is not 12/8. It is in 4/4 with swung quavers. Jazz, particularly big band swing (which is the style of this piece) rarely uses 12/8. Furthermore, the current arrangement of Jazzy Overworld currently on the site (by fingerz) is in 4/4 with swung quavers. Some VG piece which do use 12/8 and 6/8 include:




/rant

Anyways, Craggy Coast includes 5/4 and 6/4.

Quote from: NocturneOfShadow on April 16, 2015, 08:25:09 PMBest example of 5/4 will always be mission impossible

Oh yeah. I love that song! :)