NinSheetMusic Forums

Based on the results of the interest poll, hosts should expect around 8 players to sign up! Poll will go up end of day Sunday the 17th.

Hosts:
1. BlackDragonSlayer
2. SpecsFlyer17
3. Oricorio
4.
...

Quick thoughts: Is the Paranoid What a bit much in terms of "special" human roles? Additionally, are there any ways the humans can attempt vote manipulation strats to find out who's human? I implemented the Vote Pool mechanic to try and avoid that, but in a game like this we absolutely need to try and anticipate any workarounds.

Also, in theory, this game has the possibility to go on for quite a while if the humans only lynch people who have lost their vote :P

TWG: How the Grink Stole Votesmas

The Grink is an Evil Man and he dislikes Votesmas, a totally real and legitimate holiday that is celebrated in Whats-ville. Every night, he will sneak into town and try to steal a Vote so that he can ruin Votesmas (because, as everyone knows, Votesmas can only happens when everyone has a Vote). During the day he will infiltrate the Whats-ville town meetings in a disguise to try and influence who is Exiled (for the Whats know the Evil Man The Grink lurks among them).

All players who have 0 votes are seered red. Players who have at least 1 vote are seered green (or blue).

Wolves:
1. The Grink: Every night, they can pick one player. That player's vote is permanently decreased by 1 and added to The Grink's Vote Pool. The Grink can also seer one player every night. At any point during every day phase, The Grink is informed how many votes are in the Vote Pool, and can choose to distribute votes to any player, including themselves, for that day phase (if The Grink fails to choose, it defaults to The Grink receiving the maximum number of votes in the Vote Pool).

The Grink's color is determined by how many votes they had during the prior day phase.

Humans:
2. Town Crier: Human seer. Each night they can pick a player to seer; their results are dependent on what color the player is at the end of night.
3. Mayor of Whats-ville: Has 2 votes. Is told they're a normal What.
4. Sydney Lou What: Is immune to having their vote stolen. Is told they're a normal What.
5. Paranoid What: Is told if their vote is stolen. Is told they're a normal What.
6. What
7. What
8. What

There are no wolfings, but lynchings operate as normal. There are no Instas in the game.

Wolves win when the number of votes in The Grink's Vote Pool is greater than the number of votes the Humans have. Humans win when The Grink is dead.

Host Clarifications:
(any mechanics clarifications will be added here if necessary. Feel free to ask questions!)
- No lynch is not an option.
- Phantoms will be given in the following order: Pre-Phantom (no effect), 1st Phantom (+0.01 vote against the player), 2nd Phantom (+1 vote against the player).
- If a player with a night action does not submit their action, no action goes through.
- The first night phase only will be 48 hours. All subsequent night phases will be 24 hours.

There's probably a voting strategy players can do to find out who the Grink is

Something like vote the player below you and see who dies. It may be better to allow the Grink to choose how many votes they want to use from the vote pool at any point of the phase rather than the start

Or what may even be better is allow them to give votes from the vote pool to any player, including themselves at any point of the phase. That would eliminate any trickery and also force humans to have to try come to a consensus on votes as to not have the Grinks votes overwhelm. Sounds strong but think it balances the Grink not even having a wolfing

Or if you don't like that maybe make it so the Grink can't be lynched in a KitB 

Quote from: Toby on December 13, 2023, 01:35:28 PMSomething like vote the player below you and see who dies. It may be better to allow the Grink to choose how many votes they want to use from the vote pool at any point of the phase rather than the start

That makes more sense than what I had planned (i.e. "pick how many votes you want and no take-backsies").

QuoteOr what may even be better is allow them to give votes from the vote pool to any player, including themselves at any point of the phase. That would eliminate any trickery and also force humans to have to try come to a consensus on votes as to not have the Grinks votes overwhelm. Sounds strong but think it balances the Grink not even having a wolfing

I also like this idea very much, and it's probably the one I'll go with (unless anyone else jumps in with any objections :P ). The extra trickery factor will certainly be interesting if it ever comes into play.

QuoteOr if you don't like that maybe make it so the Grink can't be lynched in a KitB

I'll see what others have to say about this before deciding, but to me it seems a bit much.

If anyone else is planning to host but wants extra time to submit a game, let me know and I'll extend the deadline!!!

Lynch the Grynch


Teams:
1. The Grinch

2. Santa Claus
3. Rudolph
4. Frosty the Snowman
5. Elf
6. Elf
7. Ebenezer Scrooge

8. Grandma (who got run over a reindeer)


Role Descriptions:
Grinch: He hates Christmas so much so that each night, he selects one player to be put on the "naughty list". The following day, that player's vote will not count. This list is cumulative. The Grinch will be informed if the player was successfully added to the naughty list or not. Also, if he places Santa on the naughty list, the Grinch will become seer colored green, and Santa will lose the ability to place a player on the nice list. Also has a seer ability, which can be used each night.

Santa Claus: Each night, Santa selects one player to be on the "nice list". If that player is on the naughty list, they are removed from the list but can be placed on the naughty list later. If the player was not on the naughty list, they are immune from being placed on the naughty list for the rest of the game. Cannot select himself, however the ability can be used once more while dead if Santa dies.
Rudolph: Lights up the night with his bright nose. Each night, he can submit one name to learn their color. Seer role.
Frosty the Snowman: A jolly, happy soul. He's pretty thicc, and his extra weight allows him to survive one wolfing without dying. Does not apply to lynching. Role PM says he's an Elf.
Elf: Just a normal elf.
Ebenezer Scrooge: Despite his harsh appearance, Scrooge has rediscovered the true meaning and spirit of Christmas. Unfortunately, he will flag red if seer'd by Rudolph. Role PM says he's an Elf.

Grandma (who got run over by a reindeer): Or at least she's trying to. Her goal is to be lynched by D2. If she is successful in doing so, one random player who voted from her will also be lynched, although the Grinch cannot die via this method. If she fails to be lynched by D2, she loses and is removed from the game. Cannot be wolfed; a wolfing attempt against her will fail.

Other Rules:
N1 start.
No cardflips.
No instas, phantoms are in play.
PMs are permitted.
If the same player is selected by the Grinch and Santa on a given night, they are not placed on the naughty list, but can be placed on the naughty list on subsequent nights. The Grinch will still be informed that their power worked, since the player was placed on the naughty list, then taken off it.
If a wolfing fails, a "wolfing failed" message will be announced. If the Grinch doesn't wolf anyone, a "no wolfing" message will be annouced.

Win Conditions:
Grinch: Achieve parity (1v1).
Town: Lynch the Grinch.
Grandma: See role above.

Some questions:
- Is The Grinch aware who's immune to their power? On top of that, are they told if their power use is successful or if it failed?
- Is the public informed if there's a failed wolfing attempt on Frosty/Grandma, or is it just a generic "there was no wolfing" message?

Comments:
- I think the Head Elf role might be a bit much with Rudolph already having a seer power.
- I think The Grinch should be aware of Grandma's identity. If The Grinch gets hit by Santa N1 and manages to hit Grandma or Frosty N1 with their wolfing (let alone N2 or onward for Frosty), the rest of the game is going to be an uphill struggle for them.

I appreciate the feedback!

Quote from: BlackDragonSlayer on December 16, 2023, 03:43:10 PMSome questions:
- Is The Grinch aware who's immune to their power? On top of that, are they told if their power use is successful or if it failed?

I was thinking no on both accounts.

- Is the public informed if there's a failed wolfing attempt on Frosty/Grandma, or is it just a generic "there was no wolfing" message?

No wolfing.

Comments:
- I think the Head Elf role might be a bit much with Rudolph already having a seer power.

I could see that. The idea was having someone who should slyly protect Santa while trying to balance not giving the identity away. However, making it another regular elf is an easy change to make.

- I think The Grinch should be aware of Grandma's identity. If The Grinch gets hit by Santa N1 and manages to hit Grandma or Frosty N1 with their wolfing (let alone N2 or onward for Frosty), the rest of the game is going to be an uphill struggle for them.

What do you mean "hit by Santa"? Nothing would happen if Santa put the Grinch on the nice list.

Quote from: SpecsFlyer17 on December 16, 2023, 04:08:14 PMI appreciate the feedback!

Continued thoughts:
- I think the Grinch should be aware if their power use is successful or fails, as it will greatly inform their day strategy.
- I think it might be a good idea if there was a specific message for failed wolfing versus no wolfing, because if both were the same, then people could instantly jump to "oh it's an inactive player!"
- I could've sworn there was a line in there about if Santa puts the Grinch on the nice list, the Grinch loses their naughty list power (basically the opposite of what the Grinch does to Santa) but I guess I was misreading that :P

Quote from: BlackDragonSlayer on December 16, 2023, 04:27:41 PMContinued thoughts:
- I think the Grinch should be aware if their power use is successful or fails, as it will greatly inform their day strategy.

I think I can agree with adding a "successful" message if the player is placed on the naughty list. I'll probably keep the "successful" message in the case where Santa picks the same player. Order of events would be being placed on the naughty list, then being taken off the list by Santa. Just to add a little bit of uncertainty into the mix.

- I think it might be a good idea if there was a specific message for failed wolfing versus no wolfing, because if both were the same, then people could instantly jump to "oh it's an inactive player!"

Yeah, that's more of a maintenance fix. Good call.

- I could've sworn there was a line in there about if Santa puts the Grinch on the nice list, the Grinch loses their naughty list power (basically the opposite of what the Grinch does to Santa) but I guess I was misreading that :P

'Tis the Season of Giving

Wolves:
1. Krampus: Each night, can give a fake gun, seer orb, or bulletproof vest to one player, but only one per item.
2. The Grinch: Each night, can guess the identity of Santa. If they guess correctly, they will receive Santa's item instead of Santa's intended target. Can only be successfully used once.

Humans:
3. Santa: Each night, can give a real gun, seer orb, or bulletproof vest to one player, but only one per item.
4. Buddy the Elf: Inherits and can give out the remaining items of Santa or Krampus, whoever dies first, but won't be told who they inherited the items from. Is told they're a regular elf.
5. Elf
6. Elf
7. Elf
8. Elf

Items
A real gun can be used to shoot and kill one player at night, while a fake gun will backfire and kill the wielder.
A real seer orb can be used to determine one player's color at night, while a fake orb will give a fake result (bule for Krampus, green for the Grinch, red for humans)
A real bulletproof vest can protect from one wolfing or gunshot, while a fake bulletproof vest won't work
The real items and fake items aren't distinguished in flavor.

Other rules:
N0 start, cardflips off, OC allowed.
48 hour days, 24 hour nights.
Wolves win at parity, town wins when all wolves are dead.

Quote from: Oricorio on December 17, 2023, 07:34:58 AMwhile a fake gun will backfire and kill the wielder.

This feels like a war crime.

Item games can be pretty fun :P

Also, funny how we have three games all featuring the Grinch. Today's the final day to submit a game, so if anyone wants to, uh... submit a fourth Grinch game, you better do it soon!

The best timeline in Oricorio's game:

N1: Human wolfed
D1: Human lynched
N2: Someone shoots a human, a human shoots a fake gun.

Game.

Quote from: SpecsFlyer17 on December 17, 2023, 06:26:01 PMThe best timeline in Oricorio's game:

N1: Human wolfed
D1: Human lynched
N2: Someone shoots a human, a human shoots a fake gun.

Game.

Perhaps adding a Bulletproof Elf might help in that regard? :P

Or even a human role that takes two hits to kill might be a good idea.

2 wolfs in an 8 player game is hard to balance because 2 mislynches ends the game. The guns add more opportunities for wolves to get shot, but at the risk of humans also getting shot.

With all the guns, adding a wolfsbane, bulletproof player, or at least someone that that takes two hits to kill is probably a decent idea. Like BDS said.

Poll's up and will run for 2 days!

Quote from: BlackDragonSlayer on December 13, 2023, 12:24:06 PMQuick thoughts: Is the Paranoid What a bit much in terms of "special" human roles? Additionally, are there any ways the humans can attempt vote manipulation strats to find out who's human? I implemented the Vote Pool mechanic to try and avoid that, but in a game like this we absolutely need to try and anticipate any workarounds.

Also, in theory, this game has the possibility to go on for quite a while if the humans only lynch people who have lost their vote :P

TWG: How the Grink Stole Votesmas

Spoiler

The Grink is an Evil Man and he dislikes Votesmas, a totally real and legitimate holiday that is celebrated in Whats-ville. Every night, he will sneak into town and try to steal a Vote so that he can ruin Votesmas (because, as everyone knows, Votesmas can only happens when everyone has a Vote). During the day he will infiltrate the Whats-ville town meetings in a disguise to try and influence who is Exiled (for the Whats know the Evil Man The Grink lurks among them).

All players who have 0 votes are seered red. Players who have at least 1 vote are seered green (or blue).

Wolves:
1. The Grink: Every night, they can pick one player. That player's vote is permanently decreased by 1 and added to The Grink's Vote Pool. The Grink can also seer one player every night. At any point during every day phase, The Grink is informed how many votes are in the Vote Pool, and can choose to distribute votes to any player, including themselves, for that day phase (if The Grink fails to choose, it defaults to The Grink receiving the maximum number of votes in the Vote Pool).

The Grink's color is determined by how many votes they had during the prior day phase.

Humans:
2. Town Crier: Human seer. Each night they can pick a player to seer; their results are dependent on what color the player is at the end of night.
3. Mayor of Whats-ville: Has 2 votes. Is told they're a normal What.
4. Sydney Lou What: Is immune to having their vote stolen. Is told they're a normal What.
5. Paranoid What: Is told if their vote is stolen. Is told they're a normal What.
6. What
7. What
8. What

There are no wolfings, but lynchings operate as normal. There are no Instas in the game.

Wolves win when the number of votes in The Grink's Vote Pool is greater than the number of votes the Humans have. Humans win when The Grink is dead.

Host Clarifications:
(any mechanics clarifications will be added here if necessary. Feel free to ask questions!)
- No lynch is not an option.
- Phantoms will be given in the following order: Pre-Phantom (no effect), 1st Phantom (+0.01 vote against the player), 2nd Phantom (+1 vote against the player).
- If a player with a night action does not submit their action, no action goes through.
- The first night phase only will be 48 hours. All subsequent night phases will be 24 hours.

[close]

Clarification questions:
-How many votes does the Grink start with?
-When a player loses a vote, is any information about that revealed (either in the phase update or in a PM)?
-Do votes distributed by the Grink return to the vote pool at end of day or are they lost once cast?

---

I think the Grink needs to be seered red regardless of how many votes they had the previous day. Otherwise, a red seering on any night other than night 1 means the Grink wasn't hit, and that just seems counter-intuitive.

Quote from: Oricorio on December 17, 2023, 07:34:58 AM'Tis the Season of Giving

Spoiler

Wolves:
1. Krampus: Each night, can give a fake gun, seer orb, or bulletproof vest to one player, but only one per item.
2. The Grinch: Each night, can guess the identity of Santa. If they guess correctly, they will receive Santa's item instead of Santa's intended target. Can only be successfully used once.

Humans:
3. Santa: Each night, can give a real gun, seer orb, or bulletproof vest to one player, but only one per item.
4. Buddy the Elf: Inherits and can give out the remaining items of Santa or Krampus, whoever dies first, but won't be told who they inherited the items from. Is told they're a regular elf.
5. Elf
6. Elf
7. Elf
8. Elf

Items
A real gun can be used to shoot and kill one player at night, while a fake gun will backfire and kill the wielder.
A real seer orb can be used to determine one player's color at night, while a fake orb will give a fake result (bule for Krampus, green for the Grinch, red for humans)
A real bulletproof vest can protect from one wolfing or gunshot, while a fake bulletproof vest won't work
The real items and fake items aren't distinguished in flavor.

Other rules:
N0 start, cardflips off, OC allowed.
48 hour days, 24 hour nights.
Wolves win at parity, town wins when all wolves are dead.

[close]

Clarification questions:
-Can both Krampus and Santa send out one of each item each night phase (and is that what you mean by "one per item"?)
-Can Krampus and Santa give items to themselves?
-Can Krampus give items to the Grinch?
-Can Krampus and Santa give multiple items to the same player in the same night phase?
-Can Krampus and Santa opt not to hand out one or more of their items during the night phase?
-Is my assumption that players obtain items at the end of the night phase, and can therefore only use them during the next night phase?

---

I think an 2-wolf 8-player game is unbalanced in favor of the wolves. Humans do have a seer power and a vigi power, but those powers are unreliable because of their fake variants. I'd suggest giving humans some sort of power that makes it possible to distinguish between the real and fake items.

Quote from: davy on December 18, 2023, 10:07:36 AMClarification questions:
-Can both Krampus and Santa send out one of each item each night phase (and is that what you mean by "one per item"?)
-Can Krampus and Santa give items to themselves?
-Can Krampus give items to the Grinch?
-Can Krampus and Santa give multiple items to the same player in the same night phase?
-Can Krampus and Santa opt not to hand out one or more of their items during the night phase?
-Is my assumption that players obtain items at the end of the night phase, and can therefore only use them during the next night phase?

---

I think an 2-wolf 8-player game is unbalanced in favor of the wolves. Humans do have a seer power and a vigi power, but those powers are unreliable because of their fake variants. I'd suggest giving humans some sort of power that makes it possible to distinguish between the real and fake items.

1. They can only send one item per phase.
2. No.
3. Yes.
4. No, see above.
5. Yes, they can idle.
6. Yes, they can use them starting the next night phase, aside from the Bulletproof Vest, which comes into effect immediately.

I'm willing to add one or two humans to the setup if there is demand. Still, the thing about an item-giving setup is that it will always be a little town-sided due to how players can be confirmed, but I've added a couple counter-measures in the setup to limit this.

Quote from: davy on December 18, 2023, 09:49:45 AMClarification questions:
-How many votes does the Grink start with?
-When a player loses a vote, is any information about that revealed (either in the phase update or in a PM)?
-Do votes distributed by the Grink return to the vote pool at end of day or are they lost once cast?

- The Grink starts with 0 votes.
- No, but if you think it should be revealed in a phase update I can include it.
- The votes return to the vote pool before the start of the next day. They cannot be lost.

QuoteI think the Grink needs to be seered red regardless of how many votes they had the previous day. Otherwise, a red seering on any night other than night 1 means the Grink wasn't hit, and that just seems counter-intuitive.

My logic is that if the Grink is perma-seered red, that basically means that the human seering gets less effective as the game goes on since there would be more red players. So, counter-intuitively, someone being seered red after N1 makes it more like for them to be human. :P

Congrats Specs, you can post player sign-ups as soon as you're able!! :D

Sign-up thread is up