Hello all!
Often times our updating staff gets so caught up in reviewing, revising, and uploading other member's sheet music that our own sheets can end up neglected. Here's a big special update for two of our updaters - DekuTrombonist and yours truly(Olimar12345)!
DekuTrombonist:
Replacements
-[GCN] - Super Smash Bros. Melee - Yoshi's Victory
-[N64] - Banjo Tooie - Cauldron Keep
-[N64] - Star Fox 64 - Map
-[NDS] - Pokemon Black White - Route 10
-[NDS] - Pokemon HeartGold SoulSilver - PokeWalker Synchronisation
-[Wii] - The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess - Hyrule Field
New Sheets
-[3DS] - Animal Crossing-New Leaf - 8 P.M.
-[GBA] - Wario Land 4 - Toy Block Tower
-[GCN] - Super Smash Bros. Brawl - Classic Mode Results Screen (Master Hand)
-[N64] - Banjo Kazooie - Clanker's Cavern (Inside Clanker)
-[N64] - Banjo Kazooie - Treasure Trove Cove (The Salty Hippo)
-[N64] - Mario Kart 64 - Result #1 (Win)
-[N64] - Mario Party 2 - Space Land
-[N64] - Paper Mario - Shooting Star Summit
-[N64] - Super Mario 64 - Correct Solution
-[NDS] - Pokemon HeartGold SoulSilver - Safari Zone Gate
-[NES] - Wario's Woods - Story Mode-Birdo
-[NES] - Wario's Woods - Title Theme
-[SNES] - Drakkhen - Air Area (Day)
-[SNES] - Drakkhen - Air Area (Night)
-[SNES] - Drakkhen - ANAK
-[SNES] - Drakkhen - Earth Aria (Day)
-[SNES] - Drakkhen - Earth Aria (Night)
-[SNES] - Drakkhen - Fire Aria (Day)
-[SNES] - Drakkhen - Fire Aria (Night)
-[SNES] - Drakkhen - Fire Aria (Tent Master)
-[SNES] - Drakkhen - Game Over
-[SNES] - Drakkhen - Kemco Jingle
-[SNES] - Drakkhen - Water Area (Day)
-[SNES] - Drakkhen - Water Area (Night)
-[SNES] - Secret of Mana - A Wish
-[SNES] - Secret of Mana - Distant Thunder (Duet)
-[SNES] - Secret of Mana - In the Dead of Night
-[SNES] - Secret of Mana - Still of the Night
-[SNES] - Secret of Mana - The Dark Star
-[SNES] - Super Bomberman - Level 5
-[SNES] - Super Bomberman - Level 5 (Duet)
-[SNES] - Super Mario Kart - Rainbow Road (Duet)
-[SNES] - Yoshi's Safari - Map
-[Wii] - Mario Kart Wii - Grumble Volcano
-[Wii] - The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess - Disc Channel Preview Screen
Olimar12345
Replacements
-[DSi] - bird & beans - Pyoro's Theme 1
-[GCN] - Pikmin - Carry, Fight, Increase and be Eatin
-[GCN] - Pikmin 2 - Bulblax Kingdom
-[GCN] - Pikmin 2 - Something Peculiar
-[GCN] - Pikmin 2 - Title Screen(2 Pianos)
-[GCN] - Pikmin 2 Awakening Wood
-[N64] - Mario Kart 64 - Moo Moo Farm
-[N64] - Mario Party - Faster Than All
-[NDS] - The Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks - The Spirit Flute
-[PC] - Cave Story - Cave Story (Plantation)
-[PC] - Cave Story - Eyes of Flame
-[PC] - Cave Story - Jenka 1
-[PC] - Cave Story - Jenka 2
-[PC] - Cave Story - Labyrinth Fight
-[PC] - Cave Story - Moonsong
-[PC] - Cave Story - On to Grasstown
-[PC] - Cave Story - Pulse
-[PC] - Cave Story - Running Hell (Curly's Theme)
-[SNES] - Super Mario World 2-Yoshi's Island - Athletic
-[SNES] - Super Mario World 2-Yoshi's Island - Castle & Fortress
-[SNES] - Super Mario World 2-Yoshi's Island - Flower Garden
-[SNES] - Super Mario World 2-Yoshi's Island - Goal & Score
-[SNES] - Super Mario World 2-Yoshi's Island - Kamek's Theme
-[SNES] - Super Mario World 2-Yoshi's Island - Overworld
-[SNES] - Super Mario World 2-Yoshi's Island - Story Music Box
-[SNES] - Super Mario World 2-Yoshi's Island - Training Course
-[SNES] - Super Mario World 2-Yoshi's Island - Underground BGM
-[SNES] - Super Mariokart - Bowser's Victory
-[SNES] - Super Mariokart - DK Junior's Victory
-[SNES] - Super Mariokart - Koopa Troopa's Victory
-[SNES] - Super Mariokart - Luigi's Victory
-[SNES] - Super Mariokart - Mario's Victory
-[SNES] - Super Mariokart - Princess Toadstool's Victory
-[SNES] - Super Mariokart - Yoshi's Victory
-[Wii] - Metroid Prime 3-Corruption - Battle with Gandrayda
-[Wii] - Super Mario Galaxy 2 - Sky Station
New Sheets
-[3DS] - Animal Crossing-New Leaf - 5 P.M.
-[GCN] - Pikmin - Level Complete
-[GCN] - Pikmin - Power-up!
-[GCN] - Pikmin - Today's Results
-[GCN] - Pikmin 2 - Boss Battle
-[GCN] - Pikmin 2 - Title Screen
-[N64] - Paper Mario- Fuzzys Stole My Shell
-[PC] - Cave Story - Last Cave
-[PS1] - Rayman - Band Land 4
-[PS1] - Rayman - Candy Chateau 1
-[SNES] - EarthBound - Ness' Bike
-[SNES] - Super Mario Kart - Toad's Victory
-[SNES] - Super Mario World 2-Yoshi's Island - Bonus Game
-[SNES] - Super Mario World 2-Yoshi's Island - Mini Boss
-[SNES] - Super Mario World 2-Yoshi's Island - Powerful Infant
-[SNES] - Super Mario World 2-Yoshi's Island - Room Before Boss
-[SNES] - Super Mario World 2-Yoshi's Island - Yoshi Start Demo
Awesome!
Quote from: Olimar12345 on August 10, 2013, 01:25:56 PM-[GBA] - Wario Land 4 - Toy Block Tower
-[SNES] - Super Mario World 2-Yoshi's Island - Athletic
-[SNES] - Super Mario World 2-Yoshi's Island - Castle & Fortress
-[SNES] - Super Mario World 2-Yoshi's Island - Flower Garden
-[SNES] - Super Mario World 2-Yoshi's Island - Goal & Score
-[SNES] - Super Mario World 2-Yoshi's Island - Kamek's Theme
-[SNES] - Super Mario World 2-Yoshi's Island - Overworld
-[SNES] - Super Mario World 2-Yoshi's Island - Story Music Box
-[SNES] - Super Mario World 2-Yoshi's Island - Training Course
-[SNES] - Super Mario World 2-Yoshi's Island - Underground BGM
-[SNES] - Super Mario World 2-Yoshi's Island - Bonus Game
-[SNES] - Super Mario World 2-Yoshi's Island - Mini Boss
-[SNES] - Super Mario World 2-Yoshi's Island - Powerful Infant
-[SNES] - Super Mario World 2-Yoshi's Island - Room Before Boss
-[SNES] - Super Mario World 2-Yoshi's Island - Yoshi Start Demo
YES! YES! Thank you!!
Best update ever
What an awesome update oh my god
I checked the site automatically as I've been doing for a while expecting no update. And wow... what a surprise I had! :O
(https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.chaos-project.com%2FSmileys%2Fdefault%2Fbow.gif&hash=223dd3a4feaa20b1dc176a2e32b2802ea2fc361d) You two are the best! It will surely take me several days to browse this list, thank you for all of your dedicated work on NSM!
Once again, thanks for these! (Especially the Grumble Volcano one)
Oh my gosh.
I can't help but notice all this special treatment going on around here...
Where's my super special update, huh?
Yeah... I'm supposed to thank you guys for ignoring the rest of the site I guess?
Quote from: SlowPokemon on August 12, 2013, 05:02:17 PMYeah... I'm supposed to thank you guys for ignoring the rest of the site I guess?
Is that... a joke?
Well, this upate has over 50 new arrangements, and about the same volume of revisions. Sure, this is wonderful, but I honestly don't get why you guys can't just throw one or two of your own stuff in with the regular updates?
You know, the updates where about 25-30 sheets get processed once every three months, or so?
And still none of my stuff gets on the site. For shame.
Quote from: MaestroUGC on August 12, 2013, 05:24:36 PMWell, this upate has over 50 new arrangements, and about the same volume of revisions. Sure, this is wonderful, but I honestly don't get why you guys can't just throw one or two of your own stuff in with the regular updates?
You know, the updates where about 25-30 sheets get processed once every three months, or so?
Exactly. It's quite frustrating as an arranger. It's fine that you care more about your own arrangements but part of an updater's duty is to submit others' sheets too.
In order for a sheet to go on the site, it has to be checked by an updater. They would need to talk one on one in a chat of some sort, or else take the slower process (the editing comments in the submissions thread,). Not every arranger has the time to have their sheets checked in real time in the chat, so they have to use the slower method. If Olimar and Deku got together, it wouldn't take nearly as much time for them to check each others sheets than it would for the same amount of other arranger's sheets .
This was just to try to keep updates continuous instead of no sheets for months. Its not like they stopped checking the other arrangers sheets, so they're not neglecting the rest of the site. I don't really see why theres a fuss
I'm not begrudging them for content, far from it.
I just don't see why, since according to Olimar:
Quote from: Olimar12345 on August 10, 2013, 01:25:56 PMOften times our updating staff gets so caught up in reviewing, revising, and uploading other member's sheet music that our own sheets can end up neglected.
They don't just throw a few of their own sheets with the standard updates. This came across more as a "Look at us and what a good job we do!" rather than an earnest update.
If the update was smaller (like something to match the other ones) or they mixed it in with another, then it'd be fine. I know the process as they do it is slow and tedious, but when you do this when so many others have been trying to get their stuff through, quite literally one at a time, to just side-step them is like a slap in the face. Most submitters only get 2 sheets per udpate, and they have to go through the whole process too, not just the updaters; and to turn around and say "Here's a bunch of our stuff, yay!" betrays their job.
Olimar has been approached to look at sheets many times over the past few weeks, months even, and he's said he was busy. Fair enough. But then he turns around and does this, it seems a bit disingenuous. You can't say "I'm working on the site" and then ignore part of your job.
Plus, I thought that they put an end to these "Highlighted Arranger" updates?
And let me reiterate that I'm not saying they do a bad job, nor that I don't appreciate all this content.
I'm just saying that this comes across as glory hounding.
I feel like while it came across as glory hounding, this was probably a good way to finally have an update. It's easy to check your own sheets for quality if you're the one who decides what quality truly is. It makes it easier to make a bigger update with more content. It may not have been the best way to go about it, but it's an update. We don't get those a whole lot.
Well if they are going to glory hound at least let me have one!
True, but then they'd have to search through all your sheets to find any details that may be missing. Of which I'm sure there'd be none since you are great as it is, but still. It's just a little more time consuming, is all i'm saying. I'm sure Olimar or Deku will back me up on this.
They're not here, so let me bash them behind their backs in peace!
^Motto4lyfe
Bubbles pretty much summed it up. Let's just be happy that there's an update and look forward to the next one.
Popping in while I have signal and I see this.
Quote from: SlowPokemon on August 12, 2013, 05:51:45 PMExactly. It's quite frustrating as an arranger. It's fine that you care more about your own arrangements but part of an updater's duty is to submit others' sheets too.
This fills me with sadness. Do you honestly feel this way, slow? Do you know how long it takes it upload sheets to the site? They have to be done one by one-this took me quite some time to do, you know. It literally takes forever to get enough quality arrangements for a decent update. I thought this would be a great way to get a quick update, with as many quality sheets as possible, before the semester started.
And yeah, slow, let me tell you how I'm ignoring you and maestro, two "arrangers" who haven't even posted in the update topic in months.
Good thing school is starting soon, I could use that as an excuse to not do updates...
Quote from: Olimar12345 on August 13, 2013, 01:17:18 AMDo you know how long it takes it upload sheets to the site?
10 seconds. Either of you can call/email me 24/7 and I'll upload 1000 sheets if you tell me to.
I do like the idea of you guys spending the time you use arranging stuff and putting a bit of it towards checking others. I know from experience it takes a little bit of effort letting the arranger know "hey i finally looked at it after 3 months, would you please take a second to look at the edit?"
I usually get a response in a few hours, and at the most, a few days.
I have to spend a lot of my time studying for school now, but if you guys need a hand, just freaking ask, I'm not 'gone' as you put it. I spend hours upon hours at my computer, just communicate. And try not to use the uploading process as an excuse, it's tedious, but damn easy. If it's difficult, batch send me the sheets and I'll do it.
Quote from: SlowPokemon on August 12, 2013, 05:51:45 PMduty
Haha, you said duty! No really. We took on this job to help other people's sheets see the light of day, to make other people's hard work see the world. Your sheets can go up any day of the week if you have time. It's your 'duty' to put others first. I never did see those sheets, so they would have only gotten one 'approval', eh, eh? It's the quick and easy way out of not posting an update in a while, yes, but we're not here to take the easy way out. Right?
Could we not? There was an update. Shouldn't we be partying, not fighting?
^How about shut up and grab some popcorn. This is the most drama I've seen all week! Keep going!
Quote from: Winter on August 13, 2013, 02:27:39 AM10 seconds. Either of you can call/email me 24/7 and I'll upload 1000 sheets if you tell me to.
Firstly, it took me much longer than that. Don't forget that replacements take twice as long as new additions. The entire process took me roughly three hours last Saturday.
Secondly, winter-you may not have technically gone anywhere, but you sure aren't around the forums anymore. I don't even think to contact you about updates anymore. :/ just sayin.
Quote from: MaestroUGC on August 12, 2013, 07:00:58 PMOlimar has been approached to look at sheets many times over the past few weeks, months even, and he's said he was busy. Fair enough. But then he turns around and does this, it seems a bit disingenuous. You can't say "I'm working on the site" and then ignore part of your job.
FYI, maestro, I am a full time student who also happens to work 30-40 hours a week. Ill admit that summer school wasn't that bad this year, but I still didn't have the amount of down time I had been used to before transferring schools. I
should be spending my free time practicing my trombone, or finishing some compositions for my junior recital.
I have answered most/all of the calls to the LF thread, and in case you didn't notice, I usually delete the post that said I was online to avoid confusion to later thread viewers. Even if I uploaded the sheets I have checked there since the last update, the update would only have about 8-10 sheets from firearrow and yugi.
Quote from: Olimar12345 on August 13, 2013, 10:22:35 AMSecondly, winter-you may not have technically gone anywhere, but you sure aren't around the forums anymore. I don't even think to contact you about updates anymore. :/ just sayin.
Okay but I am here. So no excuses! XD
If you need me to post once a day so you feel like you can talk to me, I can O.o
Route 10 has no listed composer. Who looked these over?! XD
Quote from: Dude on August 13, 2013, 10:15:07 AM^How about shut up and grab some popcorn. This is the most drama I've seen all week! Keep going!
XD
Anyways, guys, there's an easy solution to all of this - get more updaters.
Quote from: Olimar12345 on August 13, 2013, 10:22:35 AMthe update would only have about 8-10 sheets from firearrow and yugi.
and 50000000000 from JDMEK5
Quote from: FireArrow on August 13, 2013, 05:19:12 PMXD
Anyways, guys, there's an easy solution to all of this - get more updaters.
Good plan.
Tried that.
Didn't work.
This sin't the first time an issue with the update schedule/quality has cropped up before, and it certainly won't be the last. Having more updaters generally leads to "More doing Less".
Quote from: Olimar12345 on August 13, 2013, 10:22:35 AMEven if I uploaded the sheets I have checked there since the last update, the update would only have about 8-10 sheets from firearrow and yugi.
Quote from: Yugi on August 13, 2013, 05:21:13 PMand 50000000000 from JDMEK5
::)
An update is an update, I personally don't mind from who the arrangement is coming from. I can definitely understand the frustration of it not being yours (looking through the older threads, this has been a problem before), but anyone is free to share their own arrangements on the forums. It's not a contest or anything of the sort to have it finally uploaded onto the main site. Sounds like everybody here is only a volunteer, you can't exactly make people think of it as a downright duty while you have other things to worry about irl. Yep, been there, done that.
Besides, I'd think it would be more efficient to add arrangements from the quality checkers in one go rather than mix them in with the rest of the updates.
However I have to agree that if there is an obvious problem, it's gotta be fixed. You can't expect to have all of this done without teamwork, right?
(anyhoo.. I think I've said too much already *goes back to lurking*)
Tell ya what, if I'm allowed to go solo like I did back in the day, i can push out updates. I sure loved doing it. My constraint is communication with other updaters and conflicting opinions. Go back and look at the updates I posted. If they were so awful to not justify 25-50 sheets every 7 days, tell me why. If not, then we'll push for 1-updater checks. Just mull it over, that's all I need.
Hello.
As much as I like having quality sheets put up on the site, I'm not a fan of how slow the process is. Having only one approval for certainly speed things up quite a bit. We always have replacements to replace the sheets we see have mistakes. You see a sheet in the newest update, comment about what's wrong, and update the sheet in the next update. The thing is to get things going(see how well I put that) and provide people sheets. I remember when the times when I first joined the forums.
If Winter claims he could speed things up a lot more than things are in the current state, I say we at least give him a chance to show us, can he improve the updates. If you'd then like to go back to this current state, then be it. At least give him a chance. Like you did with the Daily/Weekly Updates(although that was doomed from the get-gogogo *cough-cough*).
I think what we have seen here is an example of multiple ways of handling these updates:
1) Olimar's Method ultimately relies on the "One-at-a-Time" philosophy. Quality is nearly 100%, which is fantastic, but it almost borders on perfectionism in my opinion and as a result sacrifices efficiency. Quality has been at an all time high during the past year, but it's not like any one person is responsible for that. We've gotten to a point were the vetrans already know what needs to be done for quality, and the newcomers catch on pretty fast. Your Live Review method does wonders for educating people, but it's so damn slow. You go over each sheet one note at a time, demanding near-perfection, and the result is one sheet every hour. Your online for maybe 2-3 hours at most, and tend to only help the same 4 or 5 people. At some point I can't help but wonder if by doing that these guys, while they do want to get better, still need this level of help; or if they're doing this just to be sure their stuff makes it onto an update. Newbie Friendly
2) Winter's Method handles the massive backlog in chunks of around 10 at a time. Nothing too crazy, but also pretty managable. 10 sheets a week is still at a point where we can get regular, high quality content. However, while he doesn't demand the near perfectionism of Olimar, he still has some strict standards, and while he does leave criticism, it doesn't have the best follow through. This can result in some people being perpetually locked out because they don't share the same level of education as the update staff. Corrections are very inefficient, but for those of you who know what they're doing can get through with no problems. Veteran Friendly
3) DekuTrombonist's Method works in the shadows. Seriously, he just surprises us with updates with no fanfare or warning. Quality is usually high still, but quality isn't the issue anymore. Whenever he manages an update nobody knows until it happens. As a result, I can't tell what his process is, it seems to combine the quality of Winter with the speed of Olimar. More over, it appears he steps in only when nothing's been done for long stretches of time. Useful for People Stuck in Limbo
Above all else, the major issue here is communication. Do you people talk to each other? But I think I have a way to solve this problem.
A Two-Thread Update System
We have a thread for Veterans and Skilled Arrangers. People whose sheets have reached a consistent level of quality that meets the sites standards will have their sheets handled by Winter. These are also usually the same people who have a huge back-log so it'd be nice to get them on the fast track to contribution. For this group quality is rarely an issue, but if an issue pops up Winter can deal with it, and this thread should be pretty autonomous. Think of it as a "Regular Contributors" system.
Secondly, we have a thread for New Arrangers. People who are making their first contributions to the site and who are new to arranging altogether. Here, Olimar can handle their sheets and educate them to his heart's content. He'll make updates when he feels he has enough quality sheets. We can even make them feel special by giving them their own updates, "First Time Contibutors" or something. When the entire updating staff agrees that somebody has reached a point of consistent, high quality sheets, they can graduate to the Veteran Thread.
Deku can still do his Super Special Holiday Update series, since that usually when he updates, that could be a combination of the above two's content, or some other special thing the Updaters can agree on.
This way the site gets consistent updates and the update stuff isn't faced with talking the Thousand Sheet Wall that is the Contributers' pride and joy. Also, start talking to each other.
^Totally down with that!
best idea ever.
I do like this idea, assuming that Winter and Olimar stay on top of it haha. Don't forget, isn't Shadowkirby a mod too? He could probably help with that Veteran thread, if there's not much quality assurance that needs to happen.
In your situation, if one wants to "apply" to use the veterans thread, where would that take place?
Me gusta. Very much.
Also, theoretically, if arrangers post in their personal threads before the submission thread, they should be able to iron out the formatting errors and simple problems before bringing them to the updaters. In a perfect world.....
Also, thanks for taking the time to post that, Maestro. Not only did you think it through well, you got Dude to say something serious for the first time in my memory.
If somebody want to move to the veterans thread the best way is to ask the updaters. They'd be the ones who will say "Your sheets are good, you can get in the fast lane."
Quote from: TheZeldaPianist275 on August 14, 2013, 12:13:03 PMAlso, theoretically, if arrangers post in their personal threads before the submission thread, they should be able to iron out the formatting errors and simple problems before bringing them to the updaters. In a perfect world.....
Yep, that's a great idea...however...most of the banter in the individual threads though is "I like this arrangement" or "I love this piece" or something like that. That's not bad or anything; it's actually what one would expect. But currently, most serious feedback is either done in private or on the submissions thread.
I'm ok with Maestro's idea as long as people don't complain if they're on the lesser thread
Don't think of the two as "lesser" or "greater", instead think of the Veterans' Thread as something to strive for.
I've thought about problems with that new system you've proposed Maestro.. And I can't seem to think of any.
I'm on board with this idea.
vote 4 maestro 4 emperor dictator of the world 2013
gogogo
Me and Maestro talked about it for a while before he posted this. and guys, honestly, with a little cooperation, this would work very well. I'd be running the thread single-handedly, allowing for no communication jumbles (one-on-one) and no waiting on a third party. You all saw me do it in the past and I can do it again. If you want this to happen, please do let us know, I'd love to see it happen as well, because I thoroughly enjoy updating, you know!
Each updater would have their 'way' and could work how they need to work. That's surprisingly important.
Of course it's perfect!
I mean, thanks. I do what I can.
I think I like it. What does Olimar think of the idea?
Let's just say Jamaha likes it :)
I guess I should give some kind of Jamaha Seal of Approval™.
Considering the scarcity of updates lately, it's probably a good idea to try new updating methods. And if this doesn't work out, it's not like everything's ruined.
I assume the updating team can discuss this between themselves to figure things out. Of course I'll help with things if necessary but other than that, feel free to give this a shot.
EDIT: Damn you, ruining my shocking revelation.
*Jamaha stamps Jamaha Seal of Approval™*
I am totally for this idea(I swear I've suggested this before, or at least something similar). I'd be more than happy to create a sort of "intro to arranging" section for beginners.
I do not, however, think that we should abandon the dual approval method for the faster submission section. If it does comes to that, all sheets should at least be compared to their original sound file before being hastily uploaded.
Winter: i truly do not mean to offend you by this, but I am not quite convinced that you are up to par on your music theory. I'd prefer we discuss this in private though, so I'll contact you later.
Edit: Ninjad by jamaha.
EditEdit: NINJAD AGAIN xD
Quote from: Olimar12345 on August 14, 2013, 02:23:20 PMI do not, however, think that we should abandon the dual approval method for the faster submission section. If it does comes to that, all sheets should at least be compared to their original sound file before being hastily uploaded.
Well we can still upload it and if someone has a problem with it they can bring it up in a topic or something, couldn't they?
Better to do
something rather than nothing, which is all we've been doing lately. -_-
Well, we've had problems in the past with people getting all mad for the uploaded sheets having errors and problems.
The whole "horrible sheets getting on the site omg" fiasco was the reason for the two updaters solution in the first place. But then we have the problem with slow updating. So we obviously need to find some kind of solution between those two extremes.
The entire reason I was always so adamant about a two step update system was that we would be getting multiple arrangements from the same people with the same issues. The purpose of thorough checks is a) to stop a bunch of garbage from getting back on the site and b) to teach less experienced arrangers the proper way to write their arrangements.
The whole sectioned off method seems like a great solution, as it adds an incentive for continuing to improve and show improvement, rather than just thinking "well they'll just fix it up in review".
I still think there should be double approval around for the newbies and people that haven't quite built up the skills to consistently churn out high quality arrangements. However my impression was that most of the backlog was from the more experienced bunch that would hopefully only need single checks, so it should help clear that up.
This proposition is an attempt at resolving that quality issue. Beginner arrangers will be getting much more attention paid to them, allowing those sheets to be brought up to par. The issue before had to do with a sort of empathy! I'd feel bad for a user, and when a sheet felt good enough, I'd not want to leave them out. Now I can get back to moving through the arrangers with a reputation for being accurate and formatting correctly. I'm not going to be checking for nothing, however, I will be able to be the second perspective on a sheet that is needed to weed out these mistakes.
We all know I strive to /lower/ the amount of mistakes on the website, you've seen the 'errors' thread. I will pay just as much attention to sheets. Having a second updater way behind/ahead of me or just plain on the wrong page will again make this process take exponentially longer.
Basically, take this opportunity or leave it. I work best as a single unit.
EDIT: Glad you agree, Kefka, there's a lot of nice arrangements in the backlog some of our arrangers have. It would really be nice to see them make it up to the main site!
Quote from: KefkaticFanatic on August 14, 2013, 02:53:13 PMIt adds an incentive for continuing to improve and show improvement, rather than just thinking "well they'll just fix it up in review".
Completely agree.
I like the idea. Still think there should be two approvals for the "beginner thread" thing though.
This idea is the best thing that's probably happened here in quite a while. I think.
I really like this idea Maestro!
Quote from: Winter on August 14, 2013, 03:00:45 PMBasically, take this opportunity or leave it. I work best as a single unit.
Rather than having you and someone else work together, you could have it as a 2 step process (First you get Winter to Approve it, then you send it on to another updater to do quick double check.) It does seem like it'd take longer, but it probably be faster than having have two updaters work at once.
...isn't that pretty much what we've been doing?
What seperates a Veternerian/skilled arranger from a newbie arranger?
First off, a veteranarian is a doctor for animals and an arranger recreates songs with different instrumentation and ideas.
That was a joke.
Quote from: K-NiGhT on August 14, 2013, 04:50:04 PM...isn't that pretty much what we've been doing?
Not at all. We'd still have the advanced/newbie arrangers, it's just an idea to to have 2 approvals without winter having to work with someone for the advanced group.
I have to say that the feature of having to have TWO updaters approve your arrangement SUCKS. It just doesn't make sense; if one mod OKs it there should be no need for a second opinion. Especially when there's never a second person around....
That was done, and there was the issue of a large number of problematic arrangements being uploaded.
That is why the two part system makes more sense.
but now we have more people that know what they're doing with music theory so it's not as bad.
Well, a part of it is always going to be really bad.
I'm just saying that if someone like Olimar, who really knows his shit, approves it, there's not much need for another mod to come say "yeah ok you're fine."
^This so much.
Winter may not have the training that Olimar has when it comes to theory, but he does know enough of the basics to notice any glaring errors. Formating is universal and all of the updaters should be able to handle it.
That's why I'm saying give Winter the veterans to wokr with, since their stuff is usually top notch and requires minimal, if any, editing for accuracy or formatting.
And, to show you how becoming a Veteran/Skilled Arranger works, this is what I had in mind:
Say Person A has been contributing regularly for a few months, and his sheets have been meeting our standards. Either,
A) The updaters will notice him, or
B) He approaches an updater about moving up to the Veteran's Thread.
At this point at least two of the updaters will will then look at his accepted submissions ofer the past few upadtes, and his current backlog, if he has one. They would also ask for some opinions about Person A from other Vets about whther they think he's ready.
If the updaters agree he's reached a point of Quality, Accuracy, and has a firm understading of the art of arranging, they will then promote him.
If the updaters don't think he's ready, or are split, then he will remain in the Newbie Thread until the updaters see an improvement.
I don't care if you've been playing and arranging for the piano all of your life, your first submission for this site will be in the Newbie Thread. It is by far the best way to judge your quality of arranging, and it's also a good place to get noticed very quickly if you are really skilled at this.
I also propse that if we do enact this new system, any and all submission will be handled under the Newbie thread. After the initial update, we can then move the appropriate peoples to the Skilled Thead by having the staff review them then and there.
Just because you've been at this for a long time doesn't grandfather you into the fast lane. You will still have to go through the whole process just like anybody else.
YES. Thank you so much for saying that--I was gonna suggest everyone start in the newbie thread but didn't want to piss people off.
progress. So much progress. ;v;
Maybe we should have a rubric for Veterans to show the Newbies how to become a Veteran. Like the Task Sheet you get at school that outlines exactly what you have to do to get an A in an assignment. It would make the decision for promotions from Newbies to Veterans easier to make to since you have a physical standard of Veterans, which is neutral and must be achieved by all. And it would be the quick answer to the constant 'how do i becom vetran' question we're bound to make a drinking game out of. Just an idea.
Oh and this is brilliant btw.
Sure, there are some things that would be easy to judge, like consistent formatting of the sheets, but some other would be gray according to the matter of interpretation.
This is stuff like Accuracy, Playability, and then you'd have to take into account things like their proficiency in Music Theory to be able to provide high quality music with their arrangements.
Since the updaters would have to judge all of this in the first place, it'd be better to just have them analyze it in private rather than say "Here's a Rubric for promototion" and have them assume their stuff is up to quality.
There's no way to establish a 80% Playability minimum accross all sheets since that's not how music works on any fundamental level. But I would rather differ this to the updaters, but what ever they decide on has to be agreed upon by the entire update staff.
This is a great idea. Also means I'm going to have to clean out my arrangement thread of all my old stuff... :P (Oh well; it's been a long time coming anyways)
This sounds awesome in theory, but realistically there is always something that doesn't turn out how we expected it to. What are the disadvantages of this system? How can we deal with them?
The only one I can think of right now is that if either one if the updates goes on hiatus, an entire section of nsm will be neglected
The disadvantage is pretty much the same one its always been.
The updaters generally become busy with personal lives and can't spend as much time on forum. Working full time or being university student seems to be the standard cause.
Quote from: MaestroUGC on August 14, 2013, 11:43:39 PMWinter may not have the training that Olimar has when it comes to theory, but he does know enough of the basics to notice any glaring errors. Formating is universal and all of the updaters should be able to handle it.
On the other side of the coin, the mistakes veteran arrangers make are gonna be very obscure, not glaring.
Quote from: FireArrow on August 15, 2013, 09:37:29 PMOn the other side of the coin, the mistakes veteran arrangers make are gonna be very obscure, not glaring.
This is what I was worried about.
I am not /that/ bad. If I feel like a sheet is missing something, I usually consult another person. Please stop assuming I will just throw it all in a pile and upload it.
I assure you I can handle it. the difference now is that It will only need one seal of approval, so if a sheet is looking good, it won't have to sit through a rigorous process when it's really unnecessary. There is ALWAYS something that can be better in somebody else's opinion.
I play piano very frequently, I know what sheet music needs to look like, and I'll be playing verses on my own piano as well. What do you THINK I do?
I think they're confusing you with Shadowkirby ::)
Quote from: FireArrow on August 15, 2013, 09:37:29 PMOn the other side of the coin, the mistakes veteran arrangers make are gonna be very obscure, not glaring.
I say obscure mistakes are better than obvious.
Quote from: Bubbles7689 on August 15, 2013, 09:18:27 PMeither one of the updates
I was kind of curious about this from the start. Would updates be exclusive to each other?
Like it sounds to me right now that those in the veteran thread will be people who arrange sheets which require virtually no fixes (the Bespinbens, Olimars, Dekus, Slows, & Shadoninjas of the group). That leaves
a lot of other types of arrangers in the second one. Anywhere from first-timers, to people who have been arranging for a while but lack good music theory, to people who just don't friggin check their posts for critiques.
I'm assuming that "Accepted" means the same in both tiers and that they'll be merged when the time comes for either thread to be updated?
whoops. That was supposed to say "updaters"
Quote from: JDMEK5 on August 13, 2013, 04:30:26 PMRoute 10 has no listed composer. Who looked these over?! XD
Whoops, uploaded the wrong files. Now that I have a computer I suppose I'll fix this.
Probably not. If one update is ready, I see no need to wait for the other team, that only causes all of us to wait more.
That, and it could be circumvented even more if one group is ready to go, but the other only has 5 or six sheets ready, but not a full update. We could just tack those on if the other updater can't is delayed.
Yes, that's what I was referring to by "merging." I just meant take sheets accepted in the newbie thread and add them to the veteran update. That way they don't have to wait for everyone else.
Quote from: spitllama on August 17, 2013, 02:03:36 PM\require virtually no fixes (Bespinben)
Except for the fact that most of his arrangments are unplayable.
Unplayable by someone without the skill.
They are physically possible.
They are pretty ridiculous. I concur with Yugi here.
But really this isn't important right now.