After reading lots of posts from Bespinben and others, I just have a few questions for the experienced arrangers around here, regarding the arranging process and things like that:
Do you always transcribe everything entirely by ear?
How do you feel about MIDIs taken from games and particularly other sites/people on YouTube who arrange VGM too? They're usually not as good as the ones here but do you ever draw inspiration from them? I see people allude to them now and then but do they ever affect your work?
How much freedom do you have when arranging? That is, the amount of creativity/rearrangement present in your arrangements as opposed to matching the original note for note.
I'm just curious because I'm still pretty new at this and want to know what factors go into making an arrangement. Thanks!
I do not take any inspiration from elsewhere. If I can't figure out the notes by ear, I don't arrange it.
As for freedom, it is much more present in orchestral pieces where you have too many voices to directly transcribe it. You can make a few adjustments to increase playability, but you should try to stick to the original as closely as possible. Take something like "Serpent Devouring the Horizon" (on youtube). It has way, way too many voices to be able to transcribe everything accurately. Yet, you get to be creative and chose how you want to represent the voices best. Additionally ,you can fill out chords as much as you want, provided it is really a chord. Just have fun. :P
I generally have no issues working by ear, of course I have years of practice and experience doing so. Generally, though, basing your arrangement off of a MIDI isn't inherently evil, but only if in the realm of spot-checking. Most MIDI writers are basically doing the same thing we are, but they're generally working on a larger scale, so more room for error.
As far as freedom goes, well, I work in a far different realm of arranging...
Quote from: Latios212 on February 14, 2015, 04:55:05 PMAfter reading lots of posts from Bespinben and others, I just have a few questions for the experienced arrangers around here, regarding the arranging process and things like that:
Do you always transcribe everything entirely by ear?
How do you feel about MIDIs taken from games and particularly other sites/people on YouTube who arrange VGM too? They're usually not as good as the ones here but do you ever draw inspiration from them? I see people allude to them now and then but do they ever affect your work?
How much freedom do you have when arranging? That is, the amount of creativity/rearrangement present in your arrangements as opposed to matching the original note for note.
I'm just curious because I'm still pretty new at this and want to know what factors go into making an arrangement. Thanks!
Even though I am not an experienced arranger, I will still reply:
I think I can speak for Bespinben and myself, when I say that we only do things by ear (Bespinben also does not like to slow down playback to hear specific notes better, which I do all the time... Well... Probably because of experience...). But a YouTube-version is everything I use when arranging.
When it comes to precision and freedom, I stick to the things I hear. I do not add stuff, because people come here because they liked a specific song in a game and so of course it should be our goal to make our arrangements as close to that as possible. You also need to keep playability in mind, if you are not Bespinben.
Of course there is always a bit room to make things a bit more fancy, if needed! For example composing a little ending on your own. Most songs are just looped in a game and so they have no real ending. Here is where you can add one or two (or more) little measures to not make the song stop all of a sudden. I would consider this good style.
If you look at the Four Giants Theme for example, it is just a rolled chord, that we added in the end, because this song deserves it!
When I play arrangements from NSM on the piano, I usually have to repeat the whole thing two or three more times, because I am always thinking how it should end and I do not want the song to just stop all of a sudden... It kills the feeling!
When I do my crappy arranging I listen to it through youtube and write in the melody, then I put in the harmony, then I add the ornaments and articulations and all that jazz
But I realized that when I'm not using a headset I lose a lot of sound/it gets corrupted so it's better to use a headset/headphones than your computer's speakers
Quote from: NocturneOfShadow on February 14, 2015, 09:10:02 PMWhen I do my crappy arranging I listen to it through youtube and write in the melody, then I put in the harmony, then I add the ornaments and articulations and all that jazz
But I realized that when I'm not using a headset I lose a lot of sound/it gets corrupted so it's better to use a headset/headphones than your computer's speakers
The first non-satirical post of NoS. Bravo, let's have a toast!
Quote from: ThatGamer on February 14, 2015, 09:12:25 PMThe first non-satirical post of NoS. Bravo, let's have a toast!
all of my posts should be treated as at least basic satire
if you don't like my jokes, there's the door.
Quote from: NocturneOfShadow on February 14, 2015, 09:13:24 PMAll of my posts should be treated as at least basic satire
If you don't like my jokes, there's the door.
I didn't say I didn't like your posts.
In fact, I do.
Going back to the original topic...
Personally, I don't like using MIDIs. If there's a note I can't identify, I'll wheel out the piano to try to get something that matches. Plus, there's a lot of new video games that just don't have MIDIs of them. I strive for as little invention as possible to preserve the original work, but sometimes a little messing around is needed for playability.
Midis I use once in a blue moon. Sometimes I peak at one if I'm having a lot of trouble with a song. Usually Super Paper Mario music.
For mp3s, I use an Mp3 "slower downer" which really helps you hear the voices much easier. I recommend that. I have one built in to my Mp3 Player, but before I got that, I used an app.
Everyone cut it out with the inflammatory remarks and stick to the topic at hand.
Quote from: Latios212 on February 14, 2015, 04:55:05 PMDo you always transcribe everything entirely by ear?
How do you feel about MIDIs taken from games and particularly other sites/people on YouTube who arrange VGM too? They're usually not as good as the ones here but do you ever draw inspiration from them? I see people allude to them now and then but do they ever affect your work?
How much freedom do you have when arranging? That is, the amount of creativity/rearrangement present in your arrangements as opposed to matching the original note for note.
I used to. It's good to give your ear a good exercise when first learning where intervals start and land. How a chord progression starts from I and lands to V. It's very, very important that you recognize and learn how each tone works together to make the melody and harmonies and whatnot. So In short, if you're new, work out each note. That's my best advice and over time, you'll find it easier as you move to harder pieces.
Once you do what I suggested, It's not considered too much of a taboo to work from other people's work or midis. Some midi-s are very incorrect while others are ripped straight from the info of the game. They do sometimes vary in what you're trying to achieve when it comes to a finished product, but that's the beauty of arranging and being an arranger. It's up to you, really.
That's the big debate with me when it comes to what (I feel, personally) I use this site for. While anything we write is -technically- an arrangement, but they really do stand more as transcriptions. Now, what a transcription is, is a note-for-note adaptation of what you're hearing. Down to the instrument. But, since we write and translate everything for and to a piano, they're given the title of "arrangements". The creative process and how to creatively recreate whatever it is you're hearing is what, by all means, makes each and everyone of us a certified arranger. Use whatever is necessary you need to do just that.
So many tips. Whoa.
Quote from: Maelstrom on February 14, 2015, 05:49:14 PMIf I can't figure out the notes by ear, I don't arrange it.
you get to be creative and chose how you want to represent the voices best.
Just have fun. :P
Quote from: MaestroUGC on February 14, 2015, 06:03:17 PMGenerally, though, basing your arrangement off of a MIDI isn't inherently evil, but only if in the realm of spot-checking.
Quote from: Xaoz on February 14, 2015, 06:41:10 PMI stick to the things I hear. I do not add stuff, because people come here because they liked a specific song in a game and so of course it should be our goal to make our arrangements as close to that as possible.
you can add one or two (or more) little measures to not make the song stop all of a sudden. I would consider this good style.
Quote from: NocturneOfShadow on February 14, 2015, 09:10:02 PMwrite in the melody, then I put in the harmony, then I add the ornaments and articulations and all that jazz
Quote from: InsigTurtle on February 14, 2015, 09:39:00 PMI strive for as little invention as possible to preserve the original work, but sometimes a little messing around is needed for playability.
Quote from: mariolegofan on February 14, 2015, 09:41:59 PMMidis I use once in a blue moon. Sometimes I peak at one if I'm having a lot of trouble with a song.
Quote from: Brassman388 on February 14, 2015, 10:13:31 PMIn short, if you're new, work out each note.
Once you do what I suggested, It's not considered too much of a taboo to work from other people's work or midis. It's up to you, really.
The creative process and how to creatively recreate whatever it is you're hearing is what, by all means, makes each and everyone of us a certified arranger. Use whatever is necessary you need to do just that.
I've read through all of it, and thanks so much everyone for your help! ;D Hopefully one day, I will be able to make arrangements as good as any of yours!
Quote from: Latios212 on February 16, 2015, 01:29:48 PMSo many tips. Whoa.
I've read through all of it, and thanks so much everyone for your help! ;D Hopefully one day, I will be able to make arrangements as good as any of yours!
All you need is wisdow.
You just need wisdow to rish above the rest
"...the attempt to make a useful object equally usable for a variety of purposes is usually the way to spoil it completely."
~Arnold Schoenberg
Spoken in the context of piano reductions, I have come to believe that making a pure, computer replica-esque piano reproduction of a song "spoils it completely". I do certainly aim for the highest degree of faithfulness, no doubt, but when push comes to shove, if a song has a bunch of long sustained tones with a really driving percussive rhythm, I'm
going to make a accompaniment that reflects the timbre of the percussion using the tones spelled out in the chords (ex: "Primal Dialga", PMD2 "Ending Theme", Pokémon Ranger "Title Theme", etc.), even if not necessarily given in the OST. In the end, I feel like this approach actually produces a MORE accurate piano arrangement than by the "strict" approach.
A similar scenario from other people's sheets: stellarlight24's "Kracko"
(https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1111.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh475%2FBespinben%2Fkracko_zpsgz1eqifh.jpg&hash=3f985df1b12c5be5d9967a4add6ee0273ce86213) (http://s1111.photobucket.com/user/Bespinben/media/kracko_zpsgz1eqifh.jpg.html)
Quote from: stellarlights24 on January 16, 2015, 11:52:31 AMif you know a way to include the bass notes without being too hard I'd reaaaally appreciate that.
Okay, so I think "let's incorporate the rhythm of the high RH ostinato into the notes of the current LH chords, and make that the new right hand part, and then write in the omitted bass:
(https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1111.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh475%2FBespinben%2Fstrgrllidea2_zps69a4338c.jpg&hash=efe9667fc895598d2287bd79a8ea27dd924b7f4e) (http://s1111.photobucket.com/user/Bespinben/media/strgrllidea2_zps69a4338c.jpg.html)
She likes it! But then...
Quote from: stellarlights24 on January 16, 2015, 01:25:02 PMSo far, your rendition works reaaaally well. My ONLY issue is that, I generally don't like changing the octaves, but this is an arrangement not a transcription sooooo I'll see how that works technically.
We have this idea of changing ANYTHING from the original somehow makes it less faithful, somehow less worthy of the title "transcription", but I would like to challenge this notion.
Quote from: Bespinben on February 16, 2015, 02:28:03 PMWe have this idea of changing ANYTHING from the original somehow makes it less faithful, somehow less worthy of the title "transcription", but I would like to challenge this notion.
I agree on some points. Yes, some members of the community think that deviations are less faithful, but as a whole, I think we already embrace them. Take you arrangements for example. The only complaints there are about your arranging is that they're too difficult. Nobody is claiming that they are less faithful than anyone else's arrangements (In fact I would argue that the opposite is true). Another example would be my arrangement of
Mario Kart 64's "Bowser's Castle." At the time, I remember Winter telling me to change the monotonous bass line from just being a single held tone for 16 bars into a mimicry of the percussion line. Suddenly the arrangement bounced with drive, yet still attained the haunting feel from the lowness of the notes and it more accurately reflected the piece than before.
Personally, my hypothesis is that, rather than a community-wide loyalty to transcription, to accurately reflect the feel that the percussive lines give, is simply too difficult and too time consuming. I personally have files upon files of incomplete arrangements which I am left frustrated with because I simply cannot recreate the energy or the drive of the original piece, mostly due to the fact that this energy live in the percussion. I don't know if I'm speaking for other arrangers and I certainly don't want to misrepresent them, but I feel that simply transcribing the boring bass lines is an easy route which ensures timely arrangements that I can squeeze into my busy life. While I certainly want to work on them so that they truly do reflect the song's nature, I simply don't have the time to develop the skills in order to do this.
However, I do agree. I think that we call them arrangements not transcriptions for a reason; because they shouldn't be transcriptions. I would love for the arrangements on this site truly represent what a song is truly saying. I agree that there is some degree of people disliking deviations and this must change, but I don't think it's as wide spread as you think.
TL;DR imo this is somewhat true, but not really.
Quote from: Clanker37 on February 17, 2015, 01:44:57 AMmy arrangement of Mario Kart 64's "Bowser's Castle."
Good example! Gee, I still remember when you first uploaded that one like it was yesterday :o I chose the percussion adaptation example because I think, like you said, most if not everyone
would see that as a necessary part of making the sheet. I think the main point I was trying to make (subconsciously), but never actually said it (until you said it for me), was this:
Quote from: Clanker37 on February 17, 2015, 01:44:57 AMsimply too difficult and too time consuming.
There are times where I've quite truly spent an entire day (or two!) tweaking with only a couple measures of a song (ex: m. 37-40 of my
PMD Gates to Infinity "Opening" [admittedly, my arranging gears were still pretty rusty then, but still]). I don't regret it though, because I know in the end as long as I am 100% satisfied with the end product, the time it took was worth it. Having had the new experience of reviewing people's sheets for submissions
officially, I jump for joy when I see this same level of attention to detail. I'm not expecting people to write in a whole database of invisible articulations, but it would be nice if we as arrangers in general just spent a little more time attending to aesthetic details, because sheet music is art, I believe. In fact, there's a whole profession dedicated to this end: "music engraver".
I love what Brassman wrote in my arrangement thread:
Quote from: Brassman388 on January 25, 2015, 03:30:48 AMyou'll be surprised how good you can get a sheet to actually look. Whenever I thought I would be done with a sheet, I would think soon after, "Does this sheet look good enough for someone to pay money for?" ...every time I wrote something new, I would always strive for that quality.
I hope I haven't offended anyone in this or the last post. It's just something I'm really passionate about.
I guess (until a few months ago) I've been lazy at arranging. But I've recently really been striving to get all my sheets as good as that: Something someone would pay money for.
I've learned a lot this past year about arranging and it has helped me so much. I probably learned 90% of what I need to arrange this past year!
Thanks everyone for investing your time in helping me. I'm very grateful!