Submission Information:
Series: Sonic
Game: Sonic the Hedgehog 2
Console: Sega Game Gear
Title: Mystic Cave Zone
Instrumentation Solo Piano
Arranger: Th3Gavst3r (http://forum.ninsheetmusic.org/index.php?action=profile;u=4780)
Replacement Information:
Links to Existing Sheet: MUS (http://www.ninsheetmusic.org/download/mus/568) | MIDI (http://www.ninsheetmusic.org/download/mid/568) | PDF (http://www.ninsheetmusic.org/download/pdf/568)
Replacement Type: Challenge (new arranger)
[attachment deleted by admin]
Funny, I was just listening to this yesterday...
Is this possible to play without the pedal?
(https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi63.tinypic.com%2Fr09lig.png&hash=cdd4dd9658cda9e19884080a45d9a71db02148a9)
If you're planning on keeping that Bb half-note held the whole time, then no. I'd be surprised to see you find someone who can play that unassisted.
Quote from: cashwarrior1 on June 18, 2016, 12:33:55 PMFunny, I was just listening to this yesterday...
Is this possible to play without the pedal?
(https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi63.tinypic.com%2Fr09lig.png&hash=cdd4dd9658cda9e19884080a45d9a71db02148a9)
Nope. Your hand would have to be the size of Rachmaninoff's.
I left it in there as a suggestion since you could play it with some skilled use of the sostenuto pedal, but I guess it's asking a lot of the player lol
Changed them to eighth notes, better solution
Haha, this one has been on my to-do list for eternity xD.
Thanks for taking it off my hands!
This is a great arrangement. Some things I noticed:
- I wasn't sure at first, but after slowing it down to 50% speed, I do in fact hear grace notes on each of the melody notes. Here is an example of the first 2 measures:
Spoiler
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/hucqsrbidz9fnpa/Screenshot%202016-06-18%2015.58.32.png?dl=1)
- M. 3 left hand (and others like it): Go ahead and switch the first eighths around layer-wise, so the eighths can connect. For example:
Spoiler
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/v507o6nqerjf7re/Screenshot%202016-06-18%2016.02.23.png?dl=1)
- Like Dudeman said already, you can't reach lots of those notes without pedal. Maybe add that in somewhere.
In my opinion, this is much uglier than what you had:
Spoiler
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/5t1yski9tsj1utz/Screenshot%202016-06-18%2016.13.11.png?dl=1)
I'd go ahead and use pedal and the half note and second layer back in.
- I've always known this song as "Mystic Cave Zone" and 90% of the playlists/soundtrack collages show it as "Mystic Cave Zone."
- If you do decide to add in the pedal, you could put the 16ths in the second layer and make the half a whole note (M. 5, 9, and others like it).
- Is there a reason why you separate some of the eighth notes throughout?
- In M. 2 left hand (and others like it), go ahead and use a sharp instead of a flat. Also, this would be much more practical way to spell the 16ths in M. 3 (and others like it):
Spoiler
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/3xd6x46xrt3cgc3/Screenshot%202016-06-18%2016.17.58.png?dl=1)
- The Mf dynamics you have in the right hand: Just go ahead and put those in the middle of the staff. Where they are now is somewhat confusing and not really needed.
I may have more feedback layer, but we'll start with this for now. Again, great work with this arrangement! This is one that I've been wanting on site for while :P
Quote from: Th3Gavst3r on June 18, 2016, 01:03:07 PMI left it in there as a suggestion since you could play it with some skilled use of the sostenuto pedal, but I guess it's asking a lot of the player lol
Changed them to eighth notes, better solution
I liked what you had before much better (with pedal) :P
Quote from: Sebastian on June 18, 2016, 01:26:29 PM- I wasn't sure at first, but after slowing it down to 50% speed, I do in fact hear grace notes on each of the melody notes. Here is an example of the first 2 measures:
Spoiler
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/hucqsrbidz9fnpa/Screenshot%202016-06-18%2015.58.32.png?dl=1)
I left them out because they're more like instant bend-ins in the real song, and I feel like regular grace notes don't imply the speed involved. Is there a way to mark something like "really fast grace notes?"
Quote from: Sebastian on June 18, 2016, 01:26:29 PM- If you do decide to add in the pedal, you could put the 16ths in the second layer and make the half a whole note (M. 5, 9, and others like it).
I'm pretty sure those A's would decay way before the cutoff, so I don't think it's worth trying to force another sostenuto on top of having to manage the other two, right?
Quote from: Sebastian on June 18, 2016, 01:26:29 PM- Is there a reason why you separate some of the eighth notes throughout?
I felt like there was something very wrong the whole time I was arranging this, thanks for pointing that out :D
It's because of some background trickery you have to do to have proper 16th swing playback. The actual hidden time sig is 8/8, which beams differently than 4/4. Hopefully I fixed everything correctly, never really thought much about beaming rules before.
Quote from: Sebastian on June 18, 2016, 01:26:29 PM- The Mf dynamics you have in the right hand: Just go ahead and put those in the middle of the staff. Where they are now is somewhat confusing and not really needed.
The way I learned was dynamics above the top staff apply only to the RH (same for LH and below its staff). If you move the mf to the middle, would the player be able to mistakenly think the last two 16ths in the LH should be quieter, or can you just assume they just know better? lol
"Check, check, check, and Czech"
Quote from: Sebastian on June 18, 2016, 01:26:29 PM- M. 3 left hand (and others like it): Go ahead and switch the first eighths around layer-wise, so the eighths can connect. For example:
Spoiler
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/v507o6nqerjf7re/Screenshot%202016-06-18%2016.02.23.png?dl=1)
- Like Dudeman said already, you can't reach lots of those notes without pedal. Maybe add that in somewhere.
In my opinion, this is much uglier than what you had:
Spoiler
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/5t1yski9tsj1utz/Screenshot%202016-06-18%2016.13.11.png?dl=1)
- I've always known this song as "Mystic Cave Zone" and 90% of the playlists/soundtrack collages show it as "Mystic Cave Zone."
- In M. 2 left hand (and others like it), go ahead and use a sharp instead of a flat. Also, this would be much more practical way to spell the 16ths in M. 3 (and others like it):
Spoiler
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/3xd6x46xrt3cgc3/Screenshot%202016-06-18%2016.17.58.png?dl=1)
Quote from: Th3Gavst3r on June 18, 2016, 02:59:12 PMI left them out because they're more like instant bend-ins in the real song, and I feel like regular grace notes don't imply the speed involved. Is there a way to mark something like "really fast grace notes?"
Grace notes are usually really short in general. You
could use 16th grace notes.
Quote from: Th3Gavst3r on June 18, 2016, 02:59:12 PMI'm pretty sure those A's would decay way before the cutoff, so I don't think it's worth trying to force another sostenuto on top of having to manage the other two, right?
You do make a good point, but those notes are held in the original for as you long as you originally had them and it's ugly (imo) to just have an eighth.
Quote from: Th3Gavst3r on June 18, 2016, 02:59:12 PMI felt like there was something very wrong the whole time I was arranging this, thanks for pointing that out :D
It's because of some background trickery you have to do to have proper 16th swing playback. The actual hidden time sig is 8/8, which beams differently than 4/4. Hopefully I fixed everything correctly, never really thought much about beaming rules before.
I'm familiar with this "trickery" haha. I've done this on a few sheets. Just don't forget to change the beaming back ;)
Quote from: Th3Gavst3r on June 18, 2016, 02:59:12 PMThe way I learned was dynamics above the top staff apply only to the RH (same for LH and below its staff). If you move the mf to the middle, would the player be able to mistakenly think the last two 16ths in the LH should be quieter, or can you just assume they just know better? lol
Well, I guess that is up to you then.
There we go, there are now extra-short grace notes and sostenutos on the holds. 8)
Awesome! By the way, I checked all the notes, and if I do say so myself, I am shocked. They are all right :P
This is a challenging song note hearing-wise. Great work!
Just a couple other things and I think that's all I have for this sheet:
- Hide the second layer rests in M. 10, 13, 15, & 17.
- After debating it with myself, I don't see a reason why the eighth note of M. 3, 5, etc. should be in the second layer. Is there a specific reason?
- Accidentals: You're gonna have to get a second opinion on the accidentals. They are very tricky and unusual in this piece, especially from M. 14+ since that first layer is playing C and E consistently while the second layer is chromatically descending.
- Give some of the systems some breathing room. You have plenty of room on the second page and some on the first. Maybe something kinda like this:
Spoiler
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/f5u1glqjm2gncdw/Screenshot%202016-06-19%2015.49.45.png?dl=1)
Great work!
What's this supposed to be titled? "Mystic Cave Zone"? I'll change it if so. How about this other one (http://www.ninsheetmusic.org/download/pdf/563)?
Quote from: Latios212 on June 19, 2016, 12:58:38 PMWhat's this supposed to be titled? "Mystic Cave Zone"?
Correct.
Thank you, Latios!
Quote from: Latios212 on June 19, 2016, 12:58:38 PMHow about this other one (http://www.ninsheetmusic.org/download/pdf/563)?
We need a replacement of that one first.That one is "Mystic Cave Zone - 2 Player."
got it
Quote from: Sebastian on June 19, 2016, 12:56:17 PM- After debating it with myself, I don't see a reason why the eighth note of M. 3, 5, etc. should be in the second layer. Is there a specific reason?
If you combine the A and C into a single voice, I feel like giving both notes their full length puts too much weight on the bass, while making both staccato leaves a gap of silence. So the second layer is there so you can indicate that only the C should be played short, more like in the original.
Quote from: Sebastian on June 19, 2016, 12:56:17 PM- Accidentals: You're gonna have to get a second opinion on the accidentals. They are very tricky and unusual in this piece, especially from M. 14+ since that first layer is playing C and E consistently while the second layer is chromatically descending.
Updaters? ;)
Yup yup
Quote from: Sebastian on June 19, 2016, 12:56:17 PM- Hide the second layer rests in M. 10, 13, 15, & 17.
- Give some of the systems some breathing room. You have plenty of room on the second page and some on the first. Maybe something kinda like this:
Spoiler
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/f5u1glqjm2gncdw/Screenshot%202016-06-19%2015.49.45.png?dl=1)
Quote from: Th3Gavst3r on June 25, 2016, 09:46:43 PMIf you combine the A and C into a single voice, I feel like giving both notes their full length puts too much weight on the bass, while making both staccato leaves a gap of silence. So the second layer is there so you can indicate that only the C should be played short, more like in the original.
Cool with me.
EDIT:
I could take a stab at the accidentals, but I don't want to get them wrong and then have an Updater clean up my mess. They are difficult because the second layer is chromatically descending
while the first layer is constantly playing a C/E.
I can take a look at them too. I'll try and clean it up right now, why not?
Btw, here's my guiding tip for accidentals in double third passages. Think of each voice of the third as its own line, and notate as such. You wouldn't write a C- C flat in one line, normally speaking, because C flat is enharmonic to a more easily notated note, which we more often use. In the case of the B - B flat, it's more acceptable.
Also- Measures 10 and the like, make the A flats into G sharps. Your key is A minor, and it's the leading tone that's sounding and then resolving downward to its natural seventh, rather than a diminished octave.
I marked the places to fix the thirds. I ended up doing it by alternating thirds with seconds, arranged so that both voices have appropriate lines for themselves. I left notes where I did it the first time, and the rest of the places to do it. (I know you know where to do it, I just felt like being a smartass, lol.)
Here's the file: MUSX (https://www.dropbox.com/s/rulpoqfm2p0ocus/Mystic%20Cave%20Zone.musx?dl=0)
That is not the part I was having trouble with.
It's M. 14+ where you have the:
Quote from: Sebastian on June 26, 2016, 11:25:13 AMThey are difficult because the second layer is chromatically descending while the first layer is constantly playing a C/E.
I also don't agree with your spellings. It's
chromatically descending and the spellings I used are much easier, especially for sight-reading.
Spoiler
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/3oqayxd7t8u0q3j/Screenshot%202016-06-26%2015.21.56.png?dl=1)
Sight reading is almost never easier with C flats, lol. Or the inclusion of sharps and flats in the same passage.
However, I'll take a look at 14.
people's obsession with preventing accidentals obfuscates the real issue
the issue is not "oh it's going down so flats bluerhbluergh" or "oh no Cb evil!", but rather harmonic function
before chromatics, the first clearly obvious mistake is the sustained Ab
A minor key, ergo G# leading tone
since it's a G#, you'd probably want to consider that for the chromatics as well
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/35209091/asdfasdf.PNG)
beat 3.5 has a D#dim7 that leads into an E major on beat 3.75
the rest is chromatics going downwards based on E major (beat 4)
same goes for the embellishments -- the grace notes starts one whole step away from the principal note
writing something like A#->B->C makes that interval a diminished 3rd instead of a major 2nd
Ben you're a saint, but you speak in tongues hehe
I guess this is why my accidentals always turn out bad, there's years of theory behind them there sharps and flats. Fixed what you guys mentioned though, thanks for explaining!
Edit: Still fixing gimme a sec
Edit2: Ok that's better. M.14/16 look like a total mess to me now, but if it's notationally correct what can I say
Measures 10, 12, 14, and 16 all paraphrase the iconic "Entry of the Gladiators" by Julius Fucik (i.e. the circus song theme that no one knows the name of). Look up an urtext manuscript of the original orchestration on IMSLP, and that should give you a good reference for properly spelling the chromatics there.
Holy cow Ben, you've been busy today lol
Anyway, after looking through Entry of the Gladiators sheets, there's some discrepancy in how people notate that section but it seems like this is the most "reputable" way:
(https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FN7NvLUE.png&hash=a7f29a0b4801dc2f71ff23e645df28a54fbc0a27)
Which (according to Finale) looks like this in A major and C major respectively:
(https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FJXmUQUe.png&hash=33f838a57fbab1ae31466835a98d59d4461260fd)
And plugging that into the the song gives this:
(https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F4FplCfV.png&hash=686487be4f688f2f5869593a32f2bfc3db7a84a0)
I really hope that's right lol
Bumpin' this one back up. It's so close!
Almost there!
- Half rests in 4 and 9 are misaligned. You can also feel free to move the layer 2 rests back to center staff since it's empty there in measures 3, 5, 7, and 9.
- Any particular reason you use one layer (LH) at the end of 2, but two layers at beginning of 3? (And similar places.)
- 14 and 16, RH: I can see why you moved that notehead, but... I think it looks really weird. I'd suggest moving it back to the right side of the stem so you can better see that the G# is part of the parallel descending dyads.
Quote from: Latios212 on August 25, 2016, 08:58:19 PM- Half rests in 4 and 9 are misaligned. You can also feel free to move the layer 2 rests back to center staff since it's empty there in measures 3, 5, 7, and 9.
Dun did it
Quote from: Latios212 on August 25, 2016, 08:58:19 PM- Any particular reason you use one layer (LH) at the end of 2, but two layers at beginning of 3? (And similar places.)
Talked about this with Sebastian up the thread a bit, basically it's there to indicate only one note of that dyad should be played staccato. I wasn't happy with the texture of making both notes either staccato or full value, so that's what it's for. That makes two people who've gotten confused though, so is there something else I should be doing?
Quote from: Latios212 on August 25, 2016, 08:58:19 PM- 14 and 16, RH: I can see why you moved that notehead, but... I think it looks really weird. I'd suggest moving it back to the right side of the stem so you can better see that the G# is part of the parallel descending dyads.
Fixed indirectly, see below change
I've lowered the second layer "ding things" in M. 10-17 down an octave to match the original song better. I used to feel like they got lost when they overlap the melody, but after listening to it on a real piano it might sound alright. Here's the older version with the dings raised an octave for comparison. (https://www.dropbox.com/s/af0bu96sbqgqic4/Mystic%20Cave%20Zone%208va%20dings.mus?dl=1)
Slight beaming inconsistency - 15 and 17 should mirror 11 and 13, and 19 like 23. I went ahead and fixed that for you.
Aside form that, great!
This submission has been accepted by Maelstrom (http://forum.ninsheetmusic.org/index.php?action=profile;u=4119).
~Zeta, your friendly NSM-Bot