Submission Information:
Series: Kirby
Game: Kirby Super Star
Console: Super Nintendo Entertainment System
Title: Gladiator Kirby
Instrumentation Solo Piano
Arranger: LeviR.star (https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=5007)
[attachment deleted by admin]
[attachment deleted by admin]
Mainly, various albums for the original
Kirby Super Star have listed this song as two general names: "Gladiator Kirby" and "Coliseum". The official
Kirby Super Star Ultra disc lists it as "Coliseum Battle", but since these names are all Japanese translations, and everyone knows this mode and song by "The
Arena", I have decided to name it "Arena Battle" for the sake of the site.
If anyone needs to ask any questions here on my choice of parts, articulations, playability vs. accuracy decisions, etc., feel free ask away. I had to put a lot of thought into this sheet, so I'm willing to explain and talk over anything that can be improved.
Quote from: LeviR.star on January 17, 2019, 07:50:18 PMMainly, various albums for the original Kirby Super Star have listed this song as two general names: "Gladiator Kirby" and "Coliseum". The official Kirby Super Star Ultra disc lists it as "Coliseum Battle", but since these names are all Japanese translations, and everyone knows this mode and song by "The Arena", I have decided to name it "Arena Battle" for the sake of the site.
I think I'll leave this to someone who knows anything about Kirby.
This is a really nice looking sheet! Going through it now...
-Key signature: I think there's two obvious choices here, either A major or D minor. If it was me, I think I'd go with D minor but I can see the arguments for both of them. Either way, the A# in bar 6 should be a Bb.
-On a similar note, I think the accidentals in the graces at bar 19 might be better as Bb - Bn - B# rather than A# - Bn - Cn.
-The bass accompaniment is just about playable, but I'm interested into why you chose the four semiquaver figure to be E A E A rather than the more 'natural' choice of A E A E. I don't necessarily think it's a problem, but I just think it'd be more intuitive with the lowest notes first.
-Why not include the bend up to the G in bar 15 like you did in bar 19? Similarly for the bend to the G in bar 22.
-I'd suggest bringing an extra system onto the first page. You've got plenty of space to fit it in, and at the moment the first page looks a little awkwardly spread out.
-The interesting copyright issue showed up again!
Spoiler
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/492809359961882625/535777506360557579/unknown.png
I can't remember what we did when this last came up. I think we might have just worked out that it didn't affect the pdf export or the print so it didn't really matter. Still, funny anyway.
-The really low chords in bar 27-28 kind of come out of nowhere and I'm not sure that they really fit with the rest of the piece all that well. I'd recommend shifting the voicings around on those chords to get them in a higher register, or leaving out some harmonies so it sounds less muddy.
-The chord is G minor in bar 34, so change the Fs to Gs. Also you could consider incorporating the bass movement in this section, possibly in the lower notes of the left hand accompaniment pattern. It might require to messing around with some inversions to get it playable, but it might be worth it.
-I'd hide the rest in bar 24 since that voice goes into the top staff.
Le feedback
Quote from: Libera on January 18, 2019, 03:42:14 AM-Key signature: I think there's two obvious choices here, either A major or D minor. If it was me, I think I'd go with D minor but I can see the arguments for both of them. Either way, the A# in bar 6 should be a Bb.
I thought A minor made since because of the accidentals, but if you're not sure, we can wait for another updater's input.
Quote from: Libera on January 18, 2019, 03:42:14 AM-On a similar note, I think the accidentals in the graces at bar 19 might be better as Bb - Bn - B# rather than A# - Bn - Cn.
Are you positive? I don't really like the looks of all 3 grace notes alternating accidentals on the same note; it doesn't look right to me.
Quote from: Libera on January 18, 2019, 03:42:14 AM-The bass accompaniment is just about playable, but I'm interested into why you chose the four semiquaver figure to be E A E A rather than the more 'natural' choice of A E A E. I don't necessarily think it's a problem, but I just think it'd be more intuitive with the lowest notes first.
If you're talking about lowest notes, are you hearing an E2 in the bass? If it makes it even easier for the performing, I can either move the E down or the A up.
Quote from: Libera on January 18, 2019, 03:42:14 AM-Why not include the bend up to the G in bar 15 like you did in bar 19? Similarly for the bend to the G in bar 22.
M. 19's bend starts much lower than 15 & 22's. I could add single grace notes to those spots, but they'd be treated more like grace notes than drawn-out bends, and plus, I'd also have to bend up to the D in 22, making the tiny bend/grace a dyad (which doesn't always sound that nice)
Quote from: Libera on January 18, 2019, 03:42:14 AM-I'd suggest bringing an extra system onto the first page. You've got plenty of space to fit it in, and at the moment the first page looks a little awkwardly spread out.
-The chord is G minor in bar 34, so change the Fs to Gs.
-I'd hide the rest in bar 24 since that voice goes into the top staff.
Done and done.
Quote from: Libera on January 18, 2019, 03:42:14 AM-The interesting copyright issue showed up again!
Spoiler
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/492809359961882625/535777506360557579/unknown.png
Sorry; like I've said before, I have completely no control over this issue.
Quote from: Libera on January 18, 2019, 03:42:14 AM-The really low chords in bar 27-28 kind of come out of nowhere and I'm not sure that they really fit with the rest of the piece all that well. I'd recommend shifting the voicings around on those chords to get them in a higher register, or leaving out some harmonies so it sounds less muddy.
-Also you could consider incorporating the bass movement in this section, possibly in the lower notes of the left hand accompaniment pattern. It might require to messing around with some inversions to get it playable, but it might be worth it.
Have you any suggestions for these? ^^
I'll update the files once the above is addressed.
Quote from: LeviR.star on January 18, 2019, 09:00:01 AMI thought A minor made since because of the accidentals, but if you're not sure, we can wait for another updater's input.
A minor is definitely not correct. Up until bar 21 the piece is pretty much sitting on an A major chord, so it really depends on whether you're viewing the surrounding stuff as IIb chords and the like (and then the key signature should be A major) or you're viewing the A major chord as a dominant chord (in which case the key signature should be D minor). My primary reason for choosing D minor over A major is that it would use less accidentals overall, so it'd be easier to read (and people are used to seeing C#s in D minor anyway). Also, I just kind of get a more minor vibe from this piece than a major one.
Quote from: LeviR.star on January 18, 2019, 09:00:01 AMAre you positive? I don't really like the looks of all 3 grace notes alternating accidentals on the same note; it doesn't look right to me.
Yeah that wasn't really a great suggestion, whoops. If you change the key signature to D minor, Bb Bn Cn looks pretty good.
Quote from: LeviR.star on January 18, 2019, 09:00:01 AMIf you're talking about lowest notes, are you hearing an E2 in the bass? If it makes it even easier for the performing, I can either move the E down or the A up.
Perhaps I'm being confusing: for reference what I'm suggesting is to change bar 2 (and everywhere else with that same figure) to
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/492809359961882625/535877469434150933/unknown.png.
If that doesn't clear things up, give me a shout.
Quote from: LeviR.star on January 18, 2019, 09:00:01 AMM. 19's bend starts much lower than 15 & 22's. I could add single grace notes to those spots, but they'd be treated more like grace notes than drawn-out bends, and plus, I'd also have to bend up to the D in 22, making the tiny bend/grace a dyad (which doesn't always sound that nice)
I think I was envisioning single note graces for those two, but if you don't think it sounds good then fair enough.
Regarding the two things you wanted suggestions on, I'll try and whip something up later tonight.
Quote from: Libera on January 18, 2019, 10:04:50 AMA minor is definitely not correct. Up until bar 21 the piece is pretty much sitting on an A major chord, so it really depends on whether you're viewing the surrounding stuff as IIb chords and the like (and then the key signature should be A major) or you're viewing the A major chord as a dominant chord (in which case the key signature should be D minor). My primary reason for choosing D minor over A major is that it would use less accidentals overall, so it'd be easier to read (and people are used to seeing C#s in D minor anyway). Also, I just kind of get a more minor vibe from this piece than a major one.
This makes sense. Switching to D minor.
Quote from: Libera on January 18, 2019, 10:04:50 AMYeah that wasn't really a great suggestion, whoops. If you change the key signature to D minor, Bb Bn Cn looks pretty good.
I agree, much better.
Quote from: Libera on January 18, 2019, 10:04:50 AMPerhaps I'm being confusing: for reference what I'm suggesting is to change bar 2 (and everywhere else with that same figure) to
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/492809359961882625/535877469434150933/unknown.png.
If that doesn't clear things up, give me a shout.
Ohh, ok. I can do that (either way works for me).
Quote from: Libera on January 18, 2019, 10:04:50 AMI think I was envisioning single note graces for those two, but if you don't think it sounds good then fair enough.
I mean, to keep consistency, I can add them in. The dyad grace note won't sound horrible, so as long as the performer can play it, we're fine having it in.
Quote from: Libera on January 18, 2019, 10:04:50 AMRegarding the two things you wanted suggestions on, I'll try and whip something up later tonight.
Sounds good to me, thank you.
This piece is mainly in A phrygian dominant, except for the very final phrase, as well as measures 21 to about 27 (where it starts modulating back to A), which are in D
major—not once is there a D minor chord in the piece; it's all extensive use of mixed mode. Even then, the loop at the end clearly modulates back to A, so the main key of this piece is definitely A.
There are three ways to write the key signature for A phrygian dominant:
- Use the key for A minor and write all accidentals (Bb, C#).
- Use the key for A phrygian (one flat) and write the C#.
- Make a custom key with both Bb and C#.
I mean I'd argue that depending on how you view it these things are basically the same thing. They're certainly the same visually if you
Quote from: D3ath3657 on January 18, 2019, 10:27:57 AMUse the key for A phrygian (one flat) and write the C#.
Which I highly recommend.
Quote from: Libera on January 18, 2019, 10:49:14 AMI mean I'd argue that depending on how you view it these things are basically the same thing.
There are similarities and there are differences.
As promised, I had a mess around with those two sections.
Bars 27-28:
I had two ideas for this section. Both of them made the left hand more closely follow the bass line.
#1: I cut back on the harmonies but still included some in the left hand.
Spoiler
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/492809359961882625/535904254599102505/unknown.png
#2: I removed all of the harmonies from the left hand and moved them into the right hand as a second layer.
Spoiler
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/492809359961882625/535904173825458216/unknown.png
Feel free to do with these as you desire.
For the left hand accompaniment after bar 28, I decided that the best thing to do would probably be to simply change the first note of each bar so that it had the correct bass note at the bottom. For example:
Spoiler
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/492809359961882625/535908490279911435/unknown.png.
I hope that helps, and if you have any questions about any of that be sure to ask.
Just popping in real quick - I think we should stick with the Am key sig
Quote from: Latios212 on January 18, 2019, 01:12:40 PMJust popping in real quick - I think we should stick with the Am key sig
I vote for the nonstandard Bb+C# key signature.
Quote from: LeviR.star on January 17, 2019, 07:50:18 PMMainly, various albums for the original Kirby Super Star have listed this song as two general names: "Gladiator Kirby" and "Coliseum". The official Kirby Super Star Ultra disc lists it as "Coliseum Battle", but since these names are all Japanese translations, and everyone knows this mode and song by "The Arena", I have decided to name it "Arena Battle" for the sake of the site.
Just my two cents: the site I used to get the names for my KSS arrangements (http://snesmusic.org/v2/profile.php?profile=set&selected=1420) lists this song as "Gladiator Kirby". Do what you will with this information.
Quote from: Libera on January 18, 2019, 11:51:38 AMAs promised, I had a mess around with those two sections.
Bars 27-28:
I had two ideas for this section. Both of them made the left hand more closely follow the bass line.
#1: I cut back on the harmonies but still included some in the left hand.
Spoiler
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/492809359961882625/535904254599102505/unknown.png
#2: I removed all of the harmonies from the left hand and moved them into the right hand as a second layer.
Spoiler
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/492809359961882625/535904173825458216/unknown.png
Feel free to do with these as you desire.
For the left hand accompaniment after bar 28, I decided that the best thing to do would probably be to simply change the first note of each bar so that it had the correct bass note at the bottom. For example:
Spoiler
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/492809359961882625/535908490279911435/unknown.png.
I hope that helps, and if you have any questions about any of that be sure to ask.
Great ideas, Libera! I used #1 and your suggestion for after m. 28.
Quote from: Latios212 on January 18, 2019, 01:12:40 PMJust popping in real quick - I think we should stick with the Am key sig
Fine by me. Just let me know if I have any incorrect accidentals.
Quote from: Yug_Guy on January 18, 2019, 02:13:23 PMJust my two cents: the site I used to get the names for my KSS arrangements (http://snesmusic.org/v2/profile.php?profile=set&selected=1420) lists this song as "Gladiator Kirby". Do what you will with this information.
I have to say, that seems like a pretty good source. I'll just discuss this with Kirby Wiki Discord, because later incarnations of Arena themes have names associated with the word "Arena". It's up to you guys, too, on how easy it should be for this sheet to be found.
Finding Kirby Super Star song titles will be the death of me.Files updated with what I've got so far. Thanks for the help, guys!
Ironically, I always found this theme tougher to transcribe than the True Arena theme from Kirby Super Star Ultra.
Listening to this, the main thing I noticed is the total lack of the upper voice in Bars 1-4 (except for the first beat of Bar 1). Why isn't that line of A's, B flats, and G's in this transcription?
I've been waiting for someone to ask this. Allow me to explain ~
Quote from: Dekkadeci on January 18, 2019, 06:35:33 PMListening to this, the main thing I noticed is the total lack of the upper voice in Bars 1-4 (except for the first beat of Bar 1). Why isn't that line of A's, B flats, and G's in this transcription?
I am well aware that I am leaving out harmonies; if you're suggesting that I don't hear all of that with perfect pitch, you would be wrong. My reasoning for making those measures sound so empty in comparison will need a couple of examples:
Olimar12345's Arrangement of "Beginning" from Deltarune
Here's the first 4 measures of this sheet, arranged some time before mid-December:
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/264591162315112448/536146576222060555/unknown.png
Notice how the melody only comes into play with the RH at the very end, which is where the RH also has to stop playing those chords. This way, the song sounds exactly like the original until that point.
My Arrangement of "Beginning" from Deltarune
Here's the first 4 measures of
my sheet, arranged on Thanksgiving Day:
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/264591162315112448/536153945215598602/unknown.png
Here, the chords are only played in the LH, but the melody comes in at the same time. If you listen to the original, the rhythm behind the melody doesn't really back out when that main voice starts to play.
The way I see it, the first few bars of this song are meant to demonstrate the driving rhythm alone, and to take every opportunity to make it sound completely accurate with
both hands would kill the feel every time the RH needed to switch back to the melody. Do you understand my intentions?
Quote from: Dekkadeci on January 18, 2019, 06:35:33 PMthis transcription?
And here's the problem with your post.
Dekka, you need to understand that I have started to make a lot of decisions lately about accuracy vs. playability. I cut back a lot on this song to make it performer-friendly. It's the reason why the LH does this 5th volley on the quadruple 16ths:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/492809359961882625/535877469434150933/unknown.png
... and the reason why the LH doesn't represent the full harmony at 150 bpm.
Dekka, you may be comfortable with transcribing repeated notes (https://musescore.com/user/9996931/scores/2271766) and chords (https://musescore.com/user/9996931/scores/3157976) at ridiculous tempos (https://musescore.com/user/9996931/scores/5085205), but I'm not. To quote:
Quote from: Probably OlimarThis isn't NinMidiMusic
I may not get chords or notes right every time, but my ears and I know when I'm cutting back intentionally. So, to answer your question, that is why my sheet here has a "total lack of the upper voice".
Thing is, I don't think the RH ever actually needs to switch back to that A-B flat-G-filled melody--that melody playing in Bars 1-4 and never coming back should be sufficient. (That's how I sing this theme, anyway.)
Just a final comment from me: I'm hearing some slightly different bass notes for the final section than you put in.
-Bar 34: G rather than Bb.
-Bar 36: A rather than G. (The Gs are still there though, just not the bass.)
-Bars 37-38: Ds rather than As. (Apart from the Es on the final beat of bar 38, obviously.)
Regarding the missing RH in bars 1-4, my original assessment was that you had omitted them for exactly the reasons that you brought up and so I didn't mention it. I'm certainly happy as it is, but if you do decide to change it that's fine as well.
Quote from: Libera on January 19, 2019, 01:11:14 PMJust a final comment from me: I'm hearing some slightly different bass notes for the final section than you put in.
-Bar 34: G rather than Bb.
-Bar 36: A rather than G. (The Gs are still there though, just not the bass.)
-Bars 37-38: Ds rather than As. (Apart from the Es on the final beat of bar 38, obviously.)
Oh, I assumed you wanted the root of the higher dyads like your example... my bad. Notes changed.
Also, I talked with Kirby Wiki, and they like the idea of using "Gladiator Kirby" as a title, so we're going with that.
No worries.
Approved.
This is really looking swell, really nice work guys!
(Bonus points for the extra smooth wavy slur in m. 24)Only a few comments from me.
- I'm not really a fan of the turns - I feel their placement makes them a bit ambiguous what the intended execution is, and I'd recommend triplet grace notes in those places instead (similar to m. 9). Up to you, but I think writing them as grace notes would make more clear and consistent what exactly to do.
- Break the inner beam in m. 12 to better clarify where the triplet applies to. (You can do this by using the Beam Break Tool under Special Tools, double clicking the G, and selecting 16th)
Spoiler
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/401094846107877377/536582392111169537/unknown.png
- Could we make the beat 1 LH of m. 34 a perfect fifth like the ones around it? (Change top G>D)
Quote from: Latios212 on January 20, 2019, 08:36:47 AM- I'm not really a fan of the turns - I feel their placement makes them a bit ambiguous what the intended execution is, and I'd recommend triplet grace notes in those places instead (similar to m. 9). Up to you, but I think writing them as grace notes would make more clear and consistent what exactly to do.
I wasn't really sure of them myself, so I thought I'd leave them in until somebody said something. All changed to grace notes. Some of the slurs came out weird, but you can adjust them if you feel the need to. (Further on that: the grace note E with a tie was moved with the Note Position Tool so that the tie could be long enough.)
Quote from: Latios212 on January 20, 2019, 08:36:47 AM- Break the inner beam in m. 12 to better clarify where the triplet applies to. (You can do this by using the Beam Break Tool under Special Tools, double clicking the G, and selecting 16th)
Spoiler
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/401094846107877377/536582392111169537/unknown.png
I considered doing this for my final product, but back *then* I only knew how to break the entire beam using the / shortcut. Done.
Quote from: Latios212 on January 20, 2019, 08:36:47 AM- Could we make the beat 1 LH of m. 34 a perfect fifth like the ones around it? (Change top G>D)
Sure, as long as that's what you hear and you're okay with the thirds in the last two measures.
Quote from: Latios212 on January 20, 2019, 08:36:47 AMThis is really looking swell, really nice work guys! (Bonus points for the extra smooth wavy slur in m. 24)
Thank you much, Latios, and thanks for checking this!
I'm quite proud of the wavy slur myself
You're welcome! :)
Nice, those fast notes look clearer now. (Although in m. 31 and 35 it looks like they play before the beat instead of on the beat... but I think it's okay to leave.) In measure 20, be sure to extend the trill line to the beginning of the grace notes to clarify that you want the trill to lead into them.
Oh, and one last thing I forgot to mention last time. I noticed that you wrote the melody of m. 13-20 as single notes - not sure if it's just me, but the harmony really seems to jump out in m. 17 beat 1 whenever I listen to the song. If you feel the same way, you could put an A and E under the right hand in the D (Asus4 chord). Otherwise, totally fine to just keep as is, since the A/E are already present in the LH accompaniment. Just thought I'd mention it.
(That's all from me, sorry for one more round of back-and-forth :P)
Quote from: Latios212 on January 21, 2019, 07:34:16 PMNice, those fast notes look clearer now. (Although in m. 31 and 35 it looks like they play before the beat instead of on the beat... but I think it's okay to leave.)
If there's any other way to notate those notes, (because it seems the turn would start on the note
above,) I'm open to suggestions, but I'm okay with leaving them, too.
Quote from: Latios212 on January 21, 2019, 07:34:16 PMIn measure 20, be sure to extend the trill line to the beginning of the grace notes to clarify that you want the trill to lead into them.
That's strange, I could've sworn it was longer in my earlier drafts... fixed.
Quote from: Latios212 on January 21, 2019, 07:34:16 PMOh, and one last thing I forgot to mention last time. I noticed that you wrote the melody of m. 13-20 as single notes - not sure if it's just me, but the harmony really seems to jump out in m. 17 beat 1 whenever I listen to the song. If you feel the same way, you could put an A and E under the right hand in the D (Asus4 chord). Otherwise, totally fine to just keep as is, since the A/E are already present in the LH accompaniment. Just thought I'd mention it.
I see where you're coming from, but if it's alright, I'd rather introduce the melody to harmony come m. 21. Thanks for the suggestion, though.
Just a few more things to re-address to make sure everyone's on the same page:
- slurs on the grace notes and if they need to be adjusted in any way (because some of them look a little funky right now)
- the LH thirds in the last two measures (as opposed to the fifths preceding them)
- the rhythm and notes of the LH from m. 5 - 24 (because they tend to get covered up by everything else pretty easily)
Quote from: Latios212 on January 21, 2019, 07:34:16 PM(That's all from me, sorry for one more round of back-and-forth :P)
No, you're alright; this is the kind of feedback I'm looking for. Files fixed again for now.
Yeah, no problem! Just responding to one last point above, everything else looks fine.
Quote from: LeviR.star on January 26, 2019, 09:14:45 AM- slurs on the grace notes and if they need to be adjusted in any way (because some of them look a little funky right now)
A few of them look kinda funny, especially the ones in m. 13 and 20. They shouldn't have the right end of the slur pointing up (or even left). Try adjusting them to look a little less bent like the one in m. 15.
Oh, and I know I just mentioned in another post I think it's neater for slurs to extend to the end of tied notes in groups, but a caveat is that I think it's better for grace notes to simply slur into the notehead they lead into. This helps keep the slur pointing the normal direction as well as provide the contour you want.
Spoiler
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/401094846107877377/539637818541080577/unknown.png
Quote from: Latios212 on January 28, 2019, 06:54:39 PMYeah, no problem! Just responding to one last point above, everything else looks fine.
A few of them look kinda funny, especially the ones in m. 13 and 20. They shouldn't have the right end of the slur pointing up (or even left). Try adjusting them to look a little less bent like the one in m. 15.
Oh, and I know I just mentioned in another post I think it's neater for slurs to extend to the end of tied notes in groups, but a caveat is that I think it's better for grace notes to simply slur into the notehead they lead into. This helps keep the slur pointing the normal direction as well as provide the contour you want.
Spoiler
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/401094846107877377/539637818541080577/unknown.png
Sweet! As long as I have permission to edit them manually. Files fixed.
Of course! As you probably have already gathered, I always recommend making manual adjustments at the very end to avoid any other changes interfering with the spacing. Looks terrific now ;)
(PDF export was buggy, I replaced it. Ready for acceptance, great work!)
This submission has been accepted by Latios212 (https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=4344).
~Zeta, your friendly NSM-Bot