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NinSheetMusic => Submission Center => Submission Archive => Topic started by: Zeta on March 28, 2021, 02:48:27 PM

Title: [SW] Paper Mario: The Origami King - "Olivia's Plea" by XiaoMigros
Post by: Zeta on March 28, 2021, 02:48:27 PM
Submission Information:

Series: Paper Mario
Game: Paper Mario: The Origami King
Console: Nintendo Switch
Title: Olivia's Plea
Instrumentation Solo Piano
Arranger: XiaoMigros (https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=6725)

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Title: Re: [SW] Paper Mario: The Origami King - "Olivia's Plea" by XiaoMigros
Post by: XiaoMigros on March 28, 2021, 02:49:44 PM
An older transcription of mine, might need some work done.
Title: Re: [SW] Paper Mario: The Origami King - "Olivia's Plea" by XiaoMigros
Post by: Latios212 on March 28, 2021, 07:59:21 PM
Quote from: XiaoMigros on March 28, 2021, 02:49:44 PMAn older transcription of mine, might need some work done.
Would you mind giving it a once over first? Or is there something in particular you think you still need help with?
Title: Re: [SW] Paper Mario: The Origami King - "Olivia's Plea" by XiaoMigros
Post by: XiaoMigros on March 28, 2021, 10:52:59 PM
Can do. There's nothing particular that needs doing, I'll just double-check it for accuracy before one of you guys takes a closer look at it then :)
Title: Re: [SW] Paper Mario: The Origami King - "Olivia's Plea" by XiaoMigros
Post by: Latios212 on March 30, 2021, 08:49:52 PM
Yes, thanks - that would be much appreciated ;D
Title: Re: [SW] Paper Mario: The Origami King - "Olivia's Plea" by XiaoMigros
Post by: XiaoMigros on April 07, 2021, 04:42:48 AM
Done  :)
Should be less work for you now
Title: Re: [SW] Paper Mario: The Origami King - "Olivia's Plea" by XiaoMigros
Post by: Latios212 on April 07, 2021, 05:10:25 PM
Yay less work!

This is originally a piano piece, so I'll be a little more picky than normal regarding which chord tones to include.
- I'd suggest inverting the first chord in m. 1 down once. The original plays a B an octave lower which obviously isn't doable but we can preserve the B on bottom.
- Similarly the chord in m. 7 is rooted by a G on the bottom. That makes a minor tenth to the B flat, but if you omit the G currently written it's easy rollable or reachable. Or you could invert the Bb down as well. Anyway, I suggest playing around with it since I think this chord could be made a bit heavier
- I'm hearing the left hand C in m. 9 being held for the whole measure. I think the RH octave on beat 1 could be lengthened too - to a half note perhaps
- The chord on beat 1 of m. 1 sounds like Bb-Fn-Bb-D ascending. You could have the RH play some of those notes
- Along the same lines, I think the next few triads in m. 10-12 sound a bit too heavy. I think the ones in m. 10-11 can do without the Cn's in them, and m. 12 LH can be F#-C#-F#
- I think the half note chord in m. 14 also has a B on bottom
- Beat 2 of m. 16 isn't very playable as written - see if you can maybe omit a tone or two to make it easier for the LH to roll? I think beat 2 would be good written as C-G-E ascending. (You might want to think about removing the lower D in the half note chord here too, it sounds a bit heavy)

Other things:
- I think beat 3.5 of measure 8 would be better written up an octave, not underneath the 8va. It'd keep the contour of that phrase consistent (G descending to F#-D-A).
- Avoid having the hairpins cross the barlines in m. 17-19.
- The last two chords before the repeat definitely don't sound like p to me. Maybe save the dynamic change for the pickup back to the melody?

Formatting help to come later!
Title: Re: [SW] Paper Mario: The Origami King - "Olivia's Plea" by XiaoMigros
Post by: XiaoMigros on April 07, 2021, 10:45:15 PM
I agree with almost everything you pointed out, so here are the things I'm still less sure on:

QuoteThe chord on beat 1 of m. 1 sounds like Bb-Fn-Bb-D ascending.
Presuming you meant to say measure 10, I fixed that.

QuoteI think the RH octave on beat 1 could be lengthened too
The original doesn't hold it for that long, and personally I feel that abrupt release gives the piece extra personality. Might just be me though and of course I can change it to a half later if I change my mind. (funnily enough I had it as a half before i revised the sheet)

QuoteI think beat 3.5 of measure 8 would be better written up an octave, not underneath the 8va. It'd keep the contour of that phrase consistent (G descending to F#-D-A).
I remember struggling with that section. It seemed weird to have an F# underneath the 8va but not the G. Good to know that the way you suggested is acceptable though, I'll keep that in mind for the future :)

The files should be updated 2 minutes after this message is sent. I also went ahead and replaced the pedal markings, though I'm not so certain about their alignment.
Thanks for your time!

Title: Re: [SW] Paper Mario: The Origami King - "Olivia's Plea" by XiaoMigros
Post by: Latios212 on April 11, 2021, 09:37:54 AM
Quote from: XiaoMigros on April 07, 2021, 10:45:15 PMPresuming you meant to say measure 10, I fixed that.
Oops yeah, I meant that

Quote from: Latios212 on April 07, 2021, 05:10:25 PMI think the RH octave on beat 1 could be lengthened too - to a half note perhaps
Quote from: XiaoMigros on April 07, 2021, 10:45:15 PMThe original doesn't hold it for that long, and personally I feel that abrupt release gives the piece extra personality. Might just be me though and of course I can change it to a half later if I change my mind. (funnily enough I had it as a half before i revised the sheet)
That's fair, although I think the eighth note makes it seem a bit too abrupt. Maybe a quarter instead?

Quote from: XiaoMigros on April 07, 2021, 10:45:15 PMI remember struggling with that section. It seemed weird to have an F# underneath the 8va but not the G. Good to know that the way you suggested is acceptable though, I'll keep that in mind for the future :)
Yeah, there aren't any strict requirements for "anything above/below X should be under an ottava line". It's a good goal to preserve the contour of the phrase to see where the right hand moves up and down, and everything's still perfectly readable this way - the high G in m. 8 is anchored by a G sitting on the staff which is easy to read.

Quote from: Latios212 on April 07, 2021, 05:10:25 PM- Beat 2 of m. 16 isn't very playable as written - see if you can maybe omit a tone or two to make it easier for the LH to roll? I think beat 2 would be good written as C-G-E ascending.
I think the C-E-C-E is still a bit awkward - have you tried the C-G-E I suggested?

Also, where is the mf in m. 12 supposed to be - what note is that supposed to apply to? If m. 12 starts off as p then the latest the mf could go is the half note in m. 11.

Do you have Finale 2014 now? Do you need me to fix up the formatting or would you like some pointers on that?
Title: Re: [SW] Paper Mario: The Origami King - "Olivia's Plea" by XiaoMigros
Post by: XiaoMigros on April 11, 2021, 11:36:07 PM
QuoteI think the eighth note makes it seem a bit too abrupt. Maybe a quarter instead?
A quarter works, opted for that now

Quotehave you tried the C-G-E I suggested?
I just did, and it works really nicely! Playable, and it ties in well with the rest of the LH in that measure.

I adjusted the mf and put it on m11's half note. Don't really know what I was trying to do earlier tbh

QuoteDo you have Finale 2014 now? Do you need me to fix up the formatting or would you like some pointers on that?
Currently I'm using Finale 26, though I can't emphasise enough how inexperienced I am. Maybe if you could tell me what needs fixing up I'll try my best to do so myself. In particular the position of the pedal lines is weird and I wonder if there's a way to automatically adjust those.
Title: Re: [SW] Paper Mario: The Origami King - "Olivia's Plea" by XiaoMigros
Post by: Latios212 on April 14, 2021, 08:05:14 PM
Quote from: XiaoMigros on April 11, 2021, 11:36:07 PMCurrently I'm using Finale 26, though I can't emphasise enough how inexperienced I am. Maybe if you could tell me what needs fixing up I'll try my best to do so myself. In particular the position of the pedal lines is weird and I wonder if there's a way to automatically adjust those.
Yeah of course! Here's some info you can take for the future rather than me doing it for you.

Make the system margins consistent, most notably the left margins. Those are different for the first and second page. Use the Page Layout tool and right click one of the boxes at the beginning or end of a system and you can edit margin values for a system range. You can fine-tune the spacing later by selecting the Staff Tool and dragging systems up and down.
Spoiler
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/401094846107877377/832051259015430144/unknown.png
[close]

Page 2's missing a title header. You can create one by using the Text Tool and double clicking to create a new text box. Then you can insert the title like in this screenshot. Refer to this topic (https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/index.php?topic=10719.0) to make sure the alignment is set properly. Make sure the page margins are consistent too. You can also change the font and style here - definitely need to do that for the composer/arranger info.
Spoiler
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/401094846107877377/832051430877429793/unknown.png
[close]

Pedal markings, I would suggest hiding them since they're so abundant here - you can put a con pedale/senza pedale expression text under the LH if you want it to start/end for a section. Unless you're really set on being explicit, you can hide them like this using the Smart Shape Tool:
Spoiler
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/401094846107877377/832051543477715014/unknown.png
[close]

Sorry if this is a bit haphazardly thrown together, my mind's a little scattered tonight haha. Lemme know if you need any clarification or help
Title: Re: [SW] Paper Mario: The Origami King - "Olivia's Plea" by XiaoMigros
Post by: XiaoMigros on April 23, 2021, 09:07:00 PM
Finally got around to sorting this out:

If there's anything else that needs doing let me know and I'll do my best :)
Thanks for your time!
Title: Re: [SW] Paper Mario: The Origami King - "Olivia's Plea" by XiaoMigros
Post by: Latios212 on April 26, 2021, 08:44:03 PM
Nice, looking much better :) some more Finale-specific stuff:
- Use Expressive Text via the Expressions tool for your text markings - the "con pedale" and "rit./a tempo". This will make sure that if you move the staves around the page, the text will move along with it (the Text tool anchors text boxes to the page instead). And have a consistent font (Times new Roman size 12 italic, unlike the MusicXML import).
- The staff name in the first system also needs to be changed to Times New Roman font.
- Second page title is above the top margin (see this topic (https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/index.php?topic=10719.0)). You also don't need the footer subsequent pages.

And some more polish work that isn't Finale-specific, but things to just poke and prod visually to clean up the sheet:
- Fix the roll marking in m. 2 to not collide with the accidental
- Make sure the 8vas begin and end over the notes they begin and end at - i.e. the first 8va starts too far to the right, the last 8va ends too far to the right
- Make sure the 8vas are a consistent height above the topmost notes - i.e. the 8va is very high over the notes in m. 6 but very close to the notes in m. 20
- Allow sufficient space between hairpins and dynamics - they're a bit too close together in m. 11 and 17-18
- Make the staff spacing consistent unless there's a good reason to do otherwise - some systems have 0.88" and some have 1" between the left hand and right hand staves. You can adjust this using the Staff Tool and dragging the lower staff up and down.
- Adjust your system spacing to make better use of the space on the page. For example, the bottom staff on the first page gets pretty close to the footer. The third and fourth systems have quite a bit of space above them and can be moved up some. You can do this using the Staff Tool and dragging the right hand staff up and down. Similarly, the top system on page 2 is far too close to the page number/header/top of the page.

Might seem a bit nitpicky but a lot of small things need tweaking to make the sheet really shine visually :) let me know if you need any assistance! (And after this, probably a few final comments on visual polish will be all from me)
Title: Re: [SW] Paper Mario: The Origami King - "Olivia's Plea" by XiaoMigros
Post by: XiaoMigros on April 26, 2021, 11:29:20 PM
I'd rather have nitpicky feedback since it really helps me improve! I'll see what I can do :)
Title: Re: [SW] Paper Mario: The Origami King - "Olivia's Plea" by XiaoMigros
Post by: XiaoMigros on May 03, 2021, 03:02:43 PM
...And done!
Title: Re: [SW] Paper Mario: The Origami King - "Olivia's Plea" by XiaoMigros
Post by: Latios212 on May 03, 2021, 04:00:26 PM
Quote from: XiaoMigros on April 26, 2021, 11:29:20 PMI'd rather have nitpicky feedback since it really helps me improve! I'll see what I can do :)
Cool we're on the same page ^^ Looking much better, just a few more things from me:

Quote from: Latios212 on April 26, 2021, 08:44:03 PM- Make sure the 8vas are a consistent height above the topmost notes - i.e. the 8va is very high over the notes in m. 6 but very close to the notes in m. 20
It's still very close to the notes in m. 20, raise it a bit there to look more like m. 1

Quote from: Latios212 on April 26, 2021, 08:44:03 PM- Make the staff spacing consistent unless there's a good reason to do otherwise - some systems have 0.88" and some have 1" between the left hand and right hand staves. You can adjust this using the Staff Tool and dragging the lower staff up and down.
Forgot to mention - the "good reason to do otherwise" is when there's more stuff sticking out into the space between staves. Measure 17 in particular demands that space because the stems and notes interfere with the crescendo. The last two systems on the first page could use a tad more space as well because things get pretty close in places like m. 11 and m. 13. I think 1" would work fine for those three systems.

Quote from: Latios212 on April 26, 2021, 08:44:03 PM- Adjust your system spacing to make better use of the space on the page. For example, the bottom staff on the first page gets pretty close to the footer. The third and fourth systems have quite a bit of space above them and can be moved up some. You can do this using the Staff Tool and dragging the right hand staff up and down. Similarly, the top system on page 2 is far too close to the page number/header/top of the page.
Better, but could still be tweaked a bit further :) Look at how close the first system on each page is to the text on top of the page, and see how it's disproportionately small compared to the space between adjacent systems. Try and even that out a little bit to make the spread of "stuff" across the page a little more even.
Current
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/401094846107877377/838910865431986176/unknown.png
[close]
Suggested
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/401094846107877377/838910445321453598/unknown.png
[close]

Last couple of things:
- Try and keep the expression text/directions a consistent space away from the music. the "con/senza pedale" is the same height in m. 2 and 13 as it is in m. 20, but they should be lowered in 2 and 13 so they're not so close to the notes. Along the same lines the a tempo is floating much higher in m. 12 than the rit. does in m. 10.
- Should have another rit. in m. 18 and a tempo at the end of m. 19.
- Courtesy sharp isn't needed in m. 20.
- The pickup is included in the measure numbering, but it shouldn't be. Do one of the below (after you've implemented the rest of the feedback, otherwise all the measure numbers will be off by one) -
  - Use Finale's default pickup measure functionality (Document > Pickup Measure, you'll also need to change the beginning to actually be 4/4 instead of hidden 1/4)
  - Exclude the first measure from the measure numbering (double click using the Measure Tool, uncheck "Include in Measure Numbering"
Title: Re: [SW] Paper Mario: The Origami King - "Olivia's Plea" by XiaoMigros
Post by: XiaoMigros on May 07, 2021, 12:15:21 AM
QuoteI think 1" would work fine for those three systems.
Done, I also made some various placement adjustments to make better use of the new space

QuoteTry and even that out a little bit to make the spread of "stuff" across the page a little more even.
I tried to space it more evenly, but I think this is something I'll need to learn a bit more about. Is there some spacing tool that would make this process a bit easier? Even just something that lets me see the space between staves as a value would be extremely useful.

As for the other stuff you mentioned, I took a look at those and made some fixes. Thanks again!
Title: Re: [SW] Paper Mario: The Origami King - "Olivia's Plea" by XiaoMigros
Post by: Latios212 on May 15, 2021, 10:56:35 AM
Quote from: XiaoMigros on May 07, 2021, 12:15:21 AMAs for the other stuff you mentioned, I took a look at those and made some fixes. Thanks again!
Awesome, you're welcome!

Quote from: XiaoMigros on May 07, 2021, 12:15:21 AMDone, I also made some various placement adjustments to make better use of the new space
I tried to space it more evenly, but I think this is something I'll need to learn a bit more about. Is there some spacing tool that would make this process a bit easier? Even just something that lets me see the space between staves as a value would be extremely useful.
Yep! You can use the Page Layout Tool and view/edit margins for each system, and set the same values for multiple systems. (Just noticed here that the left margin for systems is different on page 1 and page 2, so make sure that gets set to the same value.)

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/401094846107877377/843182865533501500/unknown.png?width=692&height=292

It can help to play around with the values a bit and start out by making them the same across all systems (after the first). Past that though, I suggest just manual fine-tuning by dragging staves up and down using the Staff Tool in order to account for the different amount of stuff above and below the staff in different places. This is the kind of stuff I'll be talking about in the workshop next weekend so stay tuned :)

Anyway, the spacing looks pretty good now, thanks for updating it! Aside from the system left margins I mentioned above, the rit. markings in m. 9 and 17 are a bit awkwardly to the right; I think they'd be better centered over the notes. Lastly, I'm not sure why this happens with some converted files, but for the page 2 title and page number, use the Text Tool and check Size > Fixed Size to ensure the 12 point font is the same as on page 1 (it's a bit small now).

I'll also leave my approval here since these last few things are super tiny :)
Title: Re: [SW] Paper Mario: The Origami King - "Olivia's Plea" by XiaoMigros
Post by: Sebastian on May 17, 2021, 08:34:20 AM
I gave this puppy a thorough check the other day...I just forgot to post 😂

In addition to Latios' last few comments, I'm not seeing anything additional! You have my approval, as well...after those tiny things are fixed.
Title: Re: [SW] Paper Mario: The Origami King - "Olivia's Plea" by XiaoMigros
Post by: XiaoMigros on May 17, 2021, 09:07:15 AM
haha thanks!
In that case, I think the sheet might be ready :)
Title: Re: [SW] Paper Mario: The Origami King - "Olivia's Plea" by XiaoMigros
Post by: Sebastian on May 17, 2021, 11:28:30 AM
It's got my approval.

Lat can take a final look and hit the green button.
Title: Re: [SW] Paper Mario: The Origami King - "Olivia's Plea" by XiaoMigros
Post by: Latios212 on May 17, 2021, 03:12:37 PM
Nice :) just make sure the left margins on the second page systems matches the left margins on the first page systems as I mentioned above. Also, make sure your PDF exporter/printer is using the page size from Finale, as the PDf currently in the submission looks like it's being printed on a different size paper.

Once that's taken care of, will accept!
Title: Re: [SW] Paper Mario: The Origami King - "Olivia's Plea" by XiaoMigros
Post by: XiaoMigros on May 25, 2021, 08:01:05 PM
I changed the page size to A4, but consequentially I had to make minor adjustments to spacing and such. If it needs more spacing out to fill the taller page let me know.
Title: Re: [SW] Paper Mario: The Origami King - "Olivia's Plea" by XiaoMigros
Post by: Latios212 on May 25, 2021, 08:33:13 PM
Just chatted over Discord a bit - page size wasn't the issue, it just needed to be exported properly. Got that and the system margins all sorted out, time to accept :)
Title: Re: [SW] Paper Mario: The Origami King - "Olivia's Plea" by XiaoMigros
Post by: Zeta on May 25, 2021, 08:33:25 PM
This submission has been accepted by Latios212 (https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=4344).

~Zeta, your friendly NSM-Bot