I don't want to sound like a moron, but how do guys do it? You guys can just listen to an excerpt of a simple piece of music and write it down.
Everything was going great in music theory until we got to ear training. So far, I can only recognize major/perfect intervals in C major.
It's upsetting; I really want to recognize notes, but it's just really difficult. I can't even recognize a note that's played by itself.
The only note that I can probably notice is C3, since that's the octave I imagine C in my head. If I heard a C4 I'd probably understand it also, but other Cs are lost to me.
Yeah, this just shows how much I suck. Did you guys have problems with recognizing notes when you first started? How'd you overcome it?
If I hear a note played, unless I have a piano or another tuned instrument right next to me I dont know which note it is. If thats what youre learning how to do, then I cant help you there :-\. Mainly what I do is find the first note in a set of notes and hum it, then find the key that matches the note Im humming on the piano. Once you have the first note its fairly easier to fins out the rest, but it does help to pause the song and single out the notes one by one. This probably isnt too helpful, and more experienced arrangers could probably give you a better explanation.
Is it bad that I dont even know the difference between c4, c3, or even just plain c? :/
It comes with practice, really. I'm slowly learning to recognize notes, but what bubbles said is true too - humming out the notes and matching them. I'm no expert at all so my advice is lame sorry yeah
Quote from: Taser9090 on October 04, 2012, 07:27:49 PMYeah, this just shows how much I suck. Did you guys have problems with recognizing notes when you first started? How'd you overcome it?
It shows no such thing. I originally lurked on NSM to request things, but then I'm like, "Hey, why not try to make a sheet or two myself?" And it all went from there. I've had trouble. But any of the older members will say- and I agree with them- Practice. Lots of practice. It's a lot of ear training.
EDIT: Pfff, ninja'd by Nebbles.
Since I just started ear training I suppose I shouldn't be worry about it much then, huh.
I'm just a total noob at this. I just thought you had to be super good at recognizing notes to start arranging. :p
There's that too, yeah, but being able to know what note is which helps a lot.
I'm building my ability to recognize a note by the sound... It's taken me 10 years to even be able to start doing that though...
It's really just practice. I hear a note and I try and think about a piece in which I can unmistakably hear that same note.
It's a simple matter of comparison, but sometimes takes time...
Quote from: Nebbles on October 04, 2012, 07:57:37 PMIt comes with practice, really. I'm slowly learning to recognize notes, but what bubbles said is true too - humming out the notes and matching them. I'm no expert at all so my advice is lame sorry yeah
I'm trying to write down the Trololo song by ear... it involves rushing back and forth between my computer and my piano, with the notes lingering in my head. :P
Quote from: JDMEK5 on October 05, 2012, 01:20:11 PMI hear a note and I try and think about a piece in which I can unmistakably hear that same note.
I use that same strategy too for building perfect pitch. For C, I think of "Heart and Soul" - for D, I think of "Phantom of the Opera".
Quote from: BlackDragonSlayer on October 05, 2012, 01:39:05 PMI'm trying to write down the Trololo song by ear... it involves rushing back and forth between my computer and my piano, with the notes lingering in my head. :P
You mean this? (http://www.mediafire.com/view/?3pdl02dkyc7xikk)
Quote from: MaestroUGC on October 05, 2012, 02:21:29 PMYou mean this? (http://www.mediafire.com/view/?3pdl02dkyc7xikk)
Uh... I guess that will make things much easier... :P
Thank you!
Don't worry about absolute pitch too much, a majority of it is based on critical period. Based on scientific research, it'll be nearly impossible to develop absolute pitch to the degree that those who developed it at an early age. I think that most musically inclined often are able to think of one note's pitch in their head and then find other notes using relative pitch, anyhow. With that remark, relative pitch is generally more important than absolute pitch anyway.
In most cases, you just need to find the starting note and use relative pitch the find other notes in a piece of music. You could even write as you hear it and if your absolute pitch was off, you could simply transpose afterwards. I think that the best way to be able to improve relative pitch is to associate intervals or whatever with songs you know. To improve listening to scales, listen for Whole Steps and Half Steps. Listen to a few Whole Tone and Chromatic Scales to fully grasp the Steps and then move on to other scales. Major is W W h W W W h and Natural Minor is W h W W h W W. To differentiate the Minors, the Harmonic Minor sounds like a Natural Minor, with the exception of the Step between the 7th and 8th Notes being Half (if you listen to Whole Tone and Chromatic a bit, noticing this should be easier). As for Melodic Minor, the beginning sounds like any typical Minor Scale, but its last 3 notes sound like a Major Scale when ascending. If the scale is being played ascending and descending though, Melodic Scale is much simpler, since you simply need to hear for a change of the 6th and 7th notes on the way down.
@Taser - Hm well I mean regardless of the note itself, you can't identify for instance a perfect 5th? How long have you been studying music? (I'm not being mean, I'm just curious) With a bit of practice that much should come relatively easily :/ I'm not sure which notes I could identify off the top of my head, but the intervals that you mentioned aren't overtly difficult. What are you having trouble with in particular?
Being able to sing/hum notes helps me a lot
I've always thought it would be easy to just absorb music into your mind and take it apart. I can handle relative pitch :D
Quote from: SlowPokemon on October 05, 2012, 06:53:48 PM@Taser - Hm well I mean regardless of the note itself, you can't identify for instance a perfect 5th? How long have you been studying music? (I'm not being mean, I'm just curious) With a bit of practice that much should come relatively easily :/ I'm not sure which notes I could identify off the top of my head, but the intervals that you mentioned aren't overtly difficult. What are you having trouble with in particular?
When I said I was a total noob at all of this, I really meant that I was a total noob at all of this xD
We just started ear training two weeks ago. Since my music theory class is full of choir students, they seemed to recognize notes easily. I can recognize major chords and perfects, besides with sometimes getting confused with tritones-M7 and P4-P5.
Of the four years I've been visiting NSM, I've always thought the users here had perfect pitch and that's why they could arrange so easily. I've always thought perfect pitch was required to learn in music classes. Just until now I know that it's as hard as it looks, and it simply needs lots of practice.
I don't even know what perfect pitch is tbh, and I can arrange fine
I can't figure out pitch for shit. :P
What Fingerz said. I have to hum out every stinking note when I arrange.
I started with a fairly good sense of pitch personally. One thing I would recommend, though, is learning some theory. You don't even have to go deeply into it: basic knowledge of harmony goes far when it comes to arranging.
Every once in awhile I'll sit at a piano, look away, and play a random note and try to figure out what note it is.
You don't just recognize a tone, but when you are going to transcribe something you nede to find the key signature - not that hard of you have a pitched instrument. After that it's easy because you can hear what note is playing out of the interval between the note and the root.
This is sorta how I do it:
-Listen to the song a few times
-Identify tonic
-Identify the mode
-Identify the form of the piece
-Transcribe the bass line, then
-Transcribe the melody(or vice versa)
-Transcribe other voices.
As for accidentals, ignore them at first. Once you have the correct pitches, then go back and make the decision of which note it is. (based on the key of the piece and the notes function.)
Quote from: Olimar12345 on October 07, 2012, 03:15:14 PMAs for accidentals, ignore them at first. Once you have the correct pitches, then go back and make the decision of which note it is. (based on the key of the piece and the notes function.)
Nooooo
Quote from: Jompa on October 08, 2012, 07:13:13 AMNooooo
What? ??? I think Olimar is right as right can get.
Quote from: Jompa on October 08, 2012, 07:13:13 AMNooooo
??? Perhaps that wasn't as clear as I thought it was-what I meant was that I usually make accidentals either all sharps or all flats until proven to be the other.
Sorry, I misunderstood - you're tots right!
Oh okay then. :P well to be honest, I usually skip that step now-I can usually tell immediately. :J
Yeahhh it's way easier for me to just do it
I just start arranging the piece and figure out what key it's it whilst doing it! Anything that's got waaaaayyy to many accidentals including a lot of naturals doesn't get a key signature, for obvious reasons. :P
No, there are no obvious reasons. You need the correct key signature.
Even if a song has a key signature that isn't C major/A minor, there can still be lots of accidentals.
The key signature just has to correspond to the song you're doing.
The one exception is if the piece is in a different mode (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_(music)).
As an arranger, your job is to tell which it is. (Hint: Pay attention to the chord progressions)
Quote from: Olimar12345 on October 07, 2012, 03:15:14 PMThis is sorta how I do it:
-Listen to the song a few times
-Identify tonic
-Identify the mode
-Identify the form of the piece
-Transcribe the bass line, then
-Transcribe the melody(or vice versa)
-Transcribe other voices.
As for accidentals, ignore them at first. Once you have the correct pitches, then go back and make the decision of which note it is. (based on the key of the piece and the notes function.)
I think Olimar is right. That's the best way. Also, it sometimes help to play the melody on the piano first (or any other instrument you play).
What do you do about chords? Just curious...
Well chords... that's a little bit more difficult and requires some experience and practice. Basically, most of the chords are either easy minor/major chords which aren't really difficult to write. But when it comes to difficult jazz chords it becomes a little bit more tricky. Either you guess and it might take you a while to find the right one or you try to play it on the piano. I prefer the latter.
Quote from: Ruto on October 09, 2012, 07:10:41 AMWhat do you do about chords? Just curious...
Chords are simple-let me explain:
To create chords, we stack all of the notes that are happening simultaneously in thirds (all spaces or all lines). Here's an example:
(https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg222%2F4725%2Fpik1.png&hash=207cf8db3374fd80edde97a134b08cc69362dff6) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/222/pik1.png/)
= (https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg841%2F4261%2Fpik2.png&hash=8454657929841260cca78d78074f9eae13670c8a) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/841/pik2.png/)
In this example, the chord is G major. All I did was arrange the notes into a stack of thirds and omitted the doubled note. Since the "G" is on the bottom, it's a G chord, (specifically G Major since the remaining notes are B natural and D natural).
There are then two ways to Identify the chord quality:
1) Once you transcribe the correct melody and bass line, focus on the inner voices. What are they doing? How are they contributing to the piece? The more voices you have, the easier it will be to identify the chord.
2)Another way is to memorize how chords sound. Start with memorizing major and minor triads, then add diminished and augmented triads to the mix. Relating them to songs can sometimes be helpful. Then move to 7 chords. It can be much easier to listen to a piece and say "that chord sounds like a major chord" rather than to transcribe each note. Keep in mind this way requires a lot of ear training, witch might make it more difficult for a non-music major.
Did this help?
Quote from: Olimar12345 on October 09, 2012, 09:25:20 AMThe more voices you have, the easier it will be to identify the chord.
The easiest way to figure out a chord is to look at the notes. Every note has a corresponding chord. That chord depends on the key you're working in.
(*Disclaimer: There are exceptions; these are only the most common options)
The following examples will be given in the key of C major.
If the note is:
1) C, then the chord is C major, the tonic chord.
2) D, then the chord is G major, the dominant chord.
3) E, then the chord is C major, the tonic chord.
4) F, then the chord is F major, the subdominant chord.
5) G, then the chord is G major, the dominant chord.
6) A, then the chord may be either F major, the subdominant chord; or A minor, the relative minor to C.
7) B, then the chord is G major, the dominant chord.
The same goes for minor keys except:
1) The relative major is on the third note instead of the sixth.
2) The tonic, subdominant, and dominant chords will all be minor.
(Exception; see below)Usually the 7th chord used is a dominant 7th. A 7th chord on the dominant note. That is only the case when the dominant chord is normally major.
*Exception to #2-2: Two things need to be understood first of all:
1) In harmonic minor scales, the 7th note is raised a semitone.
2) The only difference between a minor and major chord is the middle note.
If it's a minor 3rd interval away from the tonic, it's minor. If it's a major 3rd interval away from the tonic, it's major.
Sometimes the dominant chord of a minor key may be major because the middle note of the dominant chord is the 7th note of the scale.
Raising that note a semitone would result in the harmonic raising of the 7th note.
In perfect cadences for example, the dominant chord is always major.
If that is the case, then a dominant 7th may be used.
To tell the difference between a major/minor dominant chord when arranging (in a minor key) is simply trial and error.
1) the chord you showed Olimar, wasn't a g major. It wasn't even a chord at all. I miss the b. it could also be a g minor or many other chords.
2) I wouldn't say that every note has a corresponding chord. Every piece is differently and it depends on the mood (major/minor) and even jazz chords are possible.
Quote from: dahans on October 10, 2012, 12:21:42 PM1) the chord you showed Olimar, wasn't a g major. It wasn't even a chord at all. I miss the b. it could also be a g minor or many other chords.
2) I wouldn't say that every note has a corresponding chord. Every piece is differently and it depends on the mood (major/minor) and even jazz chords are possible.
1) Nope, you're wrong. A Chord is any TWO given notes sounding at the same time. Lol but whoops, that "D" in the tenor should be a "B".
2)Well not all notes are chord tones, but usually it's not that hart to tell what's going on in these pieces.
Quote from: Olimar12345 on October 10, 2012, 12:33:13 PM1) Nope, you're wrong. A Chord is any TWO given notes sounding at the same time. Lol but whoops, that "D" in the tenor should be a "B".
2)Well not all notes are chord tones, but usually it's not that hart to tell what's going on in these pieces.
I learned that 2 notes are an interval, min. 3 notes make a chord. 2 notes can't possible define a chord.
It's actually funny. At my final test, we had the easy question "what is a chord" and I said the same thing: min. 2 tones played at the same time. And it was wrong... but maybe austrians/americans learn it differently... I mean we say "H" and not "B"
I've heard it both ways, but I think that intervals and chords are generally identified as separate things.
A chord in music is any harmonic set of two or more notes that is heard as if sounding simultaneously.
I think that the definition is subjective:
chord
noun /kôrd/
chords, plural
A group of (typically three or more) notes sounded together, as a basis of harmony
- the triumphal opening chords
- a G major chord
Web definitions
a straight line connecting two points on a curve
play chords on (a string instrument)
a combination of three or more notes that blend harmoniously when sounded together
harmonize: bring into consonance, harmony, or accord while making music or singing
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
this is getting a little bit off topic now. the definition is really useless. who cares for the definition? I just can tell you what I have learnt and I guess both points of view are "somehow correct".
Quote from: Olimar12345 on October 10, 2012, 12:33:13 PM1) Nope, you're wrong. A Chord is any TWO given notes sounding at the same time.
You sillies. Have you not considered dyads?
Quote from: Bespinben on October 10, 2012, 02:01:50 PMYou sillies. Have you not considered dyads?
I have looked for a German translation but didn't find one. I guess we call it interval in German, whereas you have a special term for it. Funny^^.
I've only heard the term interval, lol...
An interval is just the distance between two notes, so a triad has three intervals-the distance between the root and the third, the third and the fifth, and the root and the fifth.
The end of the school year is coming to a near and I did not learn much on ear training.
The process seems mind boggling; you find the key and time signature, find the rhythm and pitch. Just thinking about it makes my head spin. You guys must have super brains to do this.
I'm learning to play by ear and it really isn't as difficult as I initially thought it would be.
Just practice, a lot. The funny thing is, I found that one of the best ways to do that is to try and arrange a song - no matter how badly it ends up coming out.
The only "hard" thing, is to find the pitch of the song (the key), but as long as you have an instrument there is absolutely no problem.
One does not recognize notes, that is literally absolutely impossible without an absolute pitch, which I don't think any of us here have.
So Instead of "recognizing them" you can hear the interval between the note and tonica. Get it? You don't recognize the note, you recognize the interval. And because you have tonica as a source, you don't need absolute pitch, or even any exeptional relative pitch for that matter, to do this.
So why are some people having trouble? - they simply don't recognize the interval.
So that is the field one is supposed to practice - intervals.
Recognizing the correct pitch is possible with lots of practice, so basically absolute pitch or "very good relative pitch" as it's been named here sometimes is possible but anyways. If you're interested try the Pitch Paths method and follow the schedule suggested in the method. But either way, lets talk about other types of ear training. I would say that you should start with the most basic things first: recognizing basic rhythms and all the intervals up to an octave, first ascending and then descending and harmonic (try this site: http://www.trainear.com/). And no it's not about superior brains in the end, it's about what you practice, how you practice and how much you practice. Basically to progress quicker practice the right thing, practice it the right way and practice it enough (better a few mins a day than an hour a week or so). Ear training takes lots of time so don't worry too much. Once you can handle the intervals quite good you should practice recognizing short musical patterns without considering rhythm and then melodic dictation where you have both rhythm and note patterns to notate.
Quote from: Ricky on April 29, 2013, 11:45:37 PMRecognizing the correct pitch is possible with "very good relative pitch".
That is not what relative pitch is for. What you call possible falls under guessing and luck.
There is no "degree" of absolute pitch. Either you have it, or you don't, and there is an unjumpable gap between.
Don't listen to him, Ricky. You're right-it is possible to recognize individual pitches through relative pitch. Not only am I my own example, but we teach it over here at UH and HCC.
Jompa, every time you post about this topic, you make it into this black-and-white, can/can't argument, and that's not what relative pitch is. I could sit here and explain the process if audition, but until you try it for yourself you'll never understand.
Quote from: Jompa on April 30, 2013, 03:45:05 AMThat is not what relative pitch is for. What you call possible falls under guessing and luck.
There is no "degree" of absolute pitch. Either you have it, or you don't, and there is an unjumpable gap between.
I'm sorry but I just don't think this is accurate. I can for example recognize a D, or a B, or a few others just by hearing the pitch, but for others I require relative pitch to figure out.
We had this discussion several times. Recognizing individual pitches is a matter of memory. It's hard to memorize but it's possible (for example by associating pitches to beginning of pieces, which is what the Pitch Paths method builds upon) and requires lots of listening. Like Olimar said it's not really black and white. I for example can (at least from the practice files which come with the Pitch Paths method and ones I made myself) recognize most pitches when listening. I sometimes get things slightly wrong by a semitone or sometimes more but it depends alot on the instrument (pitches on piano are easier for me to recognize as I've practiced them the longest). I'm actually listening to one of the practice files right now (played with C Trumpet) and just recognized an Ab by association to the beginning of Moonlight Sonata.
How do you recognize tones by memorizing the first note of a song? I just end up singing the song in a different key >.>
And Jompa is completely correct on how you can figure out a note by it's interval with the tonic (which you guys aren't arguing about, but I think It's the best way to arrange.)
This (http://www.miles.be/) is the ear trainer I use (correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is what you mean Jompa.)
Quote from: FireArrow on April 30, 2013, 03:01:18 PMHow do you recognize tones by memorizing the first note of a song? I just end up singing the song in a different key >.>
For me, if I listen to the song enough I eventually can hear it in the right key, but for most songs I transfer it to a different key accidentally. My piano has a very distinct F key, and since I abuse Lost Woods I can usually tell when a song starts with an F or has a strong one in it somewhere
If you are presented with a note, lets say G, and you also get to know that it is G, and then you get to get to hear a piece in lets say F major:
If this happens then it is possible to hear that it is in F <-- this is what relative pitch does.
^Actually, this is very easy to do! But it is not a case of absolute pitch.
@Slow: it makes no sense that you can hear some specific pitches, like D and B, but you need help for other notes: if what you say is true, then you should absolutely be able to make out what any note is, from this D or B that you say you have in your head. Y'know; intervals:)
Also, if what you say is true, then you have absolute pitch - no doubt.
But the way you describe it, I would say your so-far successes with B and D, have either been luck, or a case of the method I wrote above this.
Don't forget, that the pitch of the last song you heard, can be kept in your head for a little while..
I think what I said was pretty accurate.
@Ricky: I think you are talking about intervals? Am I wrong?
If this is what you mean, then that is something you can hear even with a bad relative pitch. And this is what should be practiced. When hearing intervals you always have some note(usually the tonica) to "compare" the unknown note to.
Everyone knows a third when they hear one, so if one is played in a song in Bb major, you know right away that the note is a D.
Am I on a different subject now?:P
Anyways, this has nothing to do with "recognizing notes", as FireArrow
Puts it.
@FireArrow:
Oh good good, you actually understood my point!:) awesome! Then that should lead straight to where you want! I can't seem to open the link, but yes thereare plenty of eartraining-stuff that helps with hearing which interval an exact note is on!
I am in music high school, and I have a subject called "listening". So I've gotten quite the training on this.:)
Another tip: in most songs - simple songs - where the melody holds itself within the key at all times (this is where I refer to Pop); there literally only are seven different tones the melody can build itself on. Therefore recognizing the notes in the melody can also be as easy as just playing it right of the bat - I do this all the time - I hear a song, and I simply just play it - nothing more.
How, you ask? Well this is sorta subconscicious interval action: You will learn to trust how the intervals make out the melody, and eventuallly this will make you able to get a note picture in your head from just hearing the song. Yes, it is wonderful.
My golden rule is: "you can play ANYTHING as long as you can sing it!" The only thing in the way of this is that most people don't even dare to try:)
Quote from: Jompa on April 30, 2013, 03:30:51 PM@Ricky: I think you are talking about intervals? Am I wrong?
If this is what you mean, then that is something you can hear even with a bad relative pitch. And this is what should be practiced. When hearing intervals you always have some note(usually the tonica) to "compare" the unknown note to.
Everyone knows a third when they hear one, so if one is played in a song in Bb major, you know right away that the note is a D.
Am I on a different subject now?:P
I thought I was clear but I suppose I wasn't. The idea in the Pitch Paths method is that you first fix the association of each pitch to a piece that starts of the pitch, for example E for Fur Elise, Ab for Moonlight Sonata, D for Minuet in G (the famous one often referred to as written by J.S. Bach but it was actually written by Christian Petzold) and so on. Then once you've done enough practice in fixing the memory of a pitch to a specific piece you test your recognition for
tones not intervals. Then if you do a test which happens to start on lets say Ab (or any other of the 12 pitches if you let Windows Media Player order things randomly) you recognize that tone by associating it with what you have in your memory (the first tone of Moonlight Sonata which is Ab) without a direct reference (so no piano, no notation program, nothing basically) except your long term memory.
So you mean to rely on memory then? That is possible.
But I really wouldn't count on anyone saying they "remember" the pitch, though. I mean, that could be messed up (and likely will be) just from listening to a different song. It also sound exhausting to have to focus on keeping the pitch all the time..
Just wondering; can you do this?
^Also: if you know the pitch of one song without any reference, then you can basically tell any pitch there is.
So you would just have to remember Moonlight Sonata, and be able to tell if a song is in lets say F major. Right?
Quote from: Jompa on May 01, 2013, 02:03:17 AMSo you mean to rely on memory then? That is possible.
But I really wouldn't count on anyone saying they "remember" the pitch, though. I mean, that could be messed up (and likely will be) just from listening to a different song. It also sound exhausting to have to focus on keeping the pitch all the time..
What I'm currently referring to is the ability to recognize a pitch when hearing it, not actually being able to lets say reproduce the pitch with your voice or just think about and be sure it's an Ab I'm thinking about. But ofc, the thinking and singing part is also practicable. I just tested and my thought wasn't too far away from a correct C for example. No, there's no need to focus on keeping the pitch all the time. You need to practice it sometimes yeah but I never go around and think, I need to keep that C, I need to keep that C.
Quote from: Jompa on May 01, 2013, 02:03:17 AMJust wondering; can you do this?
^Also: if you know the pitch of one song without any reference, then you can basically tell any pitch there is.
So you would just have to remember Moonlight Sonata, and be able to tell if a song is in lets say F major. Right?
I guess so, I haven't really practiced it but could be a good idea. My pitch recognition isn't so good to directly tell in which key a piece is. Yes, there are degrees of "perfect" pitch and in the end it's all about memory (those with the seemingly magical perfect pitch ability from young age probably were exposed to more than average amount of music at young age so that memory got strongly implanted). I don't believe there's a perfect pitch gene.
Quote from: Jompa on May 01, 2013, 02:03:17 AMSo you mean to rely on memory then? That is possible.
When I was much younger I used to dream of recognizing notes by sound, and the only way I could think to do that was by memory.
So I would play and hum middle C over and over and over again.
I haven't done that in a long time but guess what? I can instantly hum a middle C whenever I want.
Memory works better than you think, but it takes time.
QuoteYes, there are degrees of "perfect" pitch and in the end it's all about memory (those with the seemingly magical perfect pitch ability from young age probably were exposed to more than average amount of music at young age so that memory got strongly implanted). I don't believe there's a perfect pitch gene.
What I am going to write now are facts:
Perfect pitch does
not have any degree - there is absolutely no way. If you believe that, then I think you should consider checking your source of that information.
There is no perfect pitch gene. As you said.
Absolute pitch is a bit of a mystery, when it comes to how a person gets it, but it is believed that something triggers it at young age. It is not likely that it is triggered by "exposed by a lot of music" - think about it, you have to agree, that just sounds like fantasy.
And lastly, Memory: The "memory"-part of absolute pitch is
not about remembering the pitch of something because you have heard it a lot. It may seem like a way to find pitches, but this is not absolute pitch at all, and as I have already said: it is not reliable.
me not being convinced by pitch paths
I just looked up pitch paths, and most of my hits were just optimistic self-overrating (which doesn't work), and what seems to work turns out to actually need a starting note of sorts from an outside source - and once that is in the game, you are on intervals, and not pitch hearing.
In absolute pitch, IF YOU ARE A MUSICIAN, you may have learned what each note you hear is called, so basically you know exactly how a G sounds. That's the role memory plays.
In absolute pitch there are some seemingly over-natural benefits as well: Like hearing the tiniest differences between two glasses of the same kind clinging, or being able to transcribe a the sound of a car breaking <-- I've seen both these cases in action :O It's nuts!
Quote from: Ricky on May 01, 2013, 06:15:45 AMWhat I'm currently referring to is the ability to recognize a pitch when hearing it, not actually being able to lets say reproduce the pitch with your voice or just think about and be sure it's an Ab I'm thinking about. But ofc, the thinking and singing part is also practicable. I just tested and my thought wasn't too far away from a correct C for example. No, there's no need to focus on keeping the pitch all the time. You need to practice it sometimes yeah but I never go around and think, I need to keep that C, I need to keep that C.
If you can't sing an Ab out of nowhere then you can't just recognize it either. I would call that more or less self-contradicting.
Did you get a C? Or did you get a note that "wasn't too far away" like B or C# (it really doesn't count if you missed by half a tone)? That C could easily have come from a reference, like the last song you heard. Either way, since you missed slightly, it must have been at the very least slightly messed up since the last time you heard a C?
You know, since I am decided on the fact that you can only do this with absolute pitch, I don't believe that this was a case of your "burnt into your brain as a C"-memory, but rather a case of reference+intervals, simply reference or simply luck.
Quote from: Jompa on May 01, 2013, 02:03:17 AMIf you know the pitch of one song without any reference, then you can tell any pitch there is.
So you would just have to remember Moonlight Sonata, and be able to tell if a song is in lets say F major. Or any other songs pitch for that matter. Intervals.
But I still don't believe the whole pitch paths thing works. Don't forget, a note would have to be remembered for a long time - I call it unreliable.
Quote from: JDMEK5 on May 01, 2013, 07:33:50 AMWhen I was much younger I used to dream of recognizing notes by sound, and the only way I could think to do that was by memory.
So I would play and hum middle C over and over and over again.
I haven't done that in a long time but guess what? I can instantly hum a middle C whenever I want.
Memory works better than you think, but it takes time.
But you don't have absolute pitch? Then I wouldn't call that middle C reliable - it could be messed up by anything.
Jompa, you're sounding like a dick. Absolute pitch DOES NOT MATTER A TINY BIT and if you don't have it IT DOES NOT MAKE YOU A BAD MUSICIAN. I don't see anything special about people with perfect pitch.
It's hard to argue with you cause no matter what I tell you think I'm more or less not telling the truth. Pitch Paths works, it works for me, it probably worked for others. There is a degree of perfect pitch, are you sure everyone with perfect pitch can really recognize such tiny differences in pitch? So you're saying that if you can recognize all the 12 tones played on an instrument but can't say lets say in which pitches the wind is sounding you don't have perfect pitch. Perfect pitch if not maintained can be made worse or "lost". So, that's another way in which perfect pitch can vary (i.e. different degrees). You're also claiming that there always have to be a reference with the Pitch Paths method, yes that's called long term memory as I already said. Once you learn the associations and implant them well in your memories they are there. Recognizing something you hear when hearing it doesn't equal to being able to recall it. Lets take an example: You may recognize a piece of music you've heard when hearing it but if you were asked how that piece goes without being able to recall it would be harder, especially if you are supposed to sing it. For example I could be asked how Mozart's 20th symphony goes, I probably wouldn't be able to recall it eventhough I've heard it but if I would listen to it there's a better chance I would recognize it. I admit that my recognition isn't 100% correct all the time because I don't practice perfect pitch so much. The more you practice the better you get (just like with any skill). I guess you will deny what I'm saying again anyways.
I would like to rephrase what SlowPokemon wrote: Absolute pitch matters but recognition of intervals, rhythm, chords, scales, instruments etc. is also important.
Quote from: SlowPokemon on May 01, 2013, 09:19:36 AMAbsolute pitch DOES NOT MATTER A TINY BIT and if you don't have it IT DOES NOT MAKE YOU A BAD MUSICIAN. I don't see anything special about people with perfect pitch.
is that pointed towards me? Because I've never said anything that suggests otherwise.
Ricky, there can't be a degree of absolute pitch - this is explanatory, nd if you wish, I can explain that.
Absolute pitch won't ever be lost or made worse.
The "magical cases" I toldyou are true. But you mentioned the wind? I know you are trying to make me sound foolish, but there is a difference between pitching a car breaking and the wind.
And the reason the pitch path method doesn't work is because it is basing on memory. You can't disgree with the fact that it will easily get messed around, affected by what you listen to (which is the outside source).
Different subject kinda (in responce to your rephrasing of Slow):
Why does absolute pitch matter?
Quote from: Jompa on May 01, 2013, 09:13:08 AMBut you don't have absolute pitch? Then I wouldn't call that middle C reliable - it could be messed up by anything.
I do have absolute pitch. But the middle C is the only note I can hum spontaneously without having to think of that note in a song.
(e.g. When I need to hum a G, I hum the first note of the Opening from Pokemon B/R/Y)
But if you have a C, then you have every other note as well - as you can easily hear the interval between this C and everything else:) right?
Quote from: Jompa on May 01, 2013, 10:02:32 AMRicky, there can't be a degree of absolute pitch - this is explanatory, nd if you wish, I can explain that.
Absolute pitch won't ever be lost or made worse.
The "magical cases" I toldyou are true. But you mentioned the wind? I know you are trying to make me sound foolish, but there is a difference between pitching a car breaking and the wind.
And the reason the pitch path method doesn't work is because it is basing on memory. You can't disgree with the fact that it will easily get messed around, affected by what you listen to (which is the outside source).
Different subject kinda (in responce to your rephrasing of Slow):
Why does absolute pitch matter?
Well, lets use a reliable source (The University of Texas (https://webspace.utexas.edu/kal463/www/abspitch.html)) and see what they say.
1. "People who have AP will generally lose it if it is useless to them." There you have it, like I said.
2. "In addition, some people have AP only for their principal instrument or the instrument that they learned first. In 1981, G. R. Lockhead and R. Byrd reported that some of their pianist subjects could identify 90% of pitches played on a piano but only 60% of pitches on another instrument." One more example of degree of absolute pitch. Told you so.
3. "Infant AP could be useful for learning some Asian languages, where the same sound pronounced at two different pitches often represents two different words with different meanings. Diana Deutsch, a psychologist at the University of California, San Diego, demonstrated that native Vietnamese and Mandarin Chinese speakers (not necessarily musicians) may use AP in speech. Researchers asked Vietnamese speakers to read rapidly a list of words spanning the range of tones in Vietnamese, then to perform the same task a day later. The subjects' pitch over the two days was very consistent, with an average variation of only 1.1 semitone. Mandarin speakers were also asked to read several words spanning the range of tones in their language, but their task was slightly different: to read one word, then to repeat it twenty seconds later. The next day, they performed the same task. The Mandarin speakers also exhibited great consistency in pitch, showing an average variation of only half a semitone between any two readings.
In a way, these Vietnamese and Mandarin speakers displayed Levitin's pitch memory and pitch labeling, by associating certain pitches with certain words." So if you believe that there is no perfect pitch gene (which is one of the few things we agree on) then these Vietnamese and Mandarin speakers aren't really that much different when compared to others in that regard. Yet they learn a language that requires at least some degree of AP. This shows that AP can be learnt and also shows (see bold text) that association is a way for aquiring AP (in their case with words, in other cases for example with melodies). This in turn gives a proof to the idea that AP in fact is a memory thing. This is ofc if there isn't a perfect pitch gene.
Yes things that depend on memory is unreliable. Even if you can memorize the 10000s of pi's decimals (something accomplishable by anyone who doesn't have a brain damage affecting the memory and who does lots of practice using memory techniques, but probably one of the most useless things to memorize either way) if you're tested you can always get something wrong and mess up the whole thing. Are you sure someone with absolute pitch is 100% accurate at all times? You know what the difference is between the being able to tell the pitches of a car breaking and lets say recognizing only most pitches and only in most cases? Memory! For example if the C pitch is very deeply implanted in your memory then you will get the C correct most of the time if not so often that it's basically always.
Why is perfect picth good to have? I will quote The Fundamentals of Piano Practice (http://www.pianofundamentals.com/book/en/1.III.12):
"Having PP is clearly an advantage. It is a great help for memorizing, sight reading, and recovering from blackouts, and for composing music. You can be the pitch pipe for your choir, and easily tune string or wind instruments. It is a lot of fun because you can tell how fast a car is going by just listening to the tires whine, you can tell the differences between different car horns and locomotive whistles, especially by noting whether they use thirds or fifths. You can remember telephone numbers easily by their tones."
We are going so far away from what this thread is about now, hahah..
As a reply to your quotes from your reliable source:
I see all over the place that it says that these are theories and proposals - not sure how that is gonna win me over. For your first quote it even says "hypothesized" ???
QuoteYes things that depend on memory is unreliable.
Are you sure someone with absolute pitch is 100% accurate at all times? You know what the difference is between the being able to tell the pitches of a car breaking and lets say recognizing only most pitches and only in most cases? Memory! For example if the C pitch is very deeply implanted in your memory then you will get the C correct most of the time if not so often that it's basically always.
If you have absolute pitch, then you have absolute pitch. If you are a musician, and has learnt what each tone is called, then yes, you will get it correct each time, because that is what absolute pitch is.
Here are a two different quotes (from myself) about why a memorized pitch is unreliable:
"Oh my god, that guy's memory is unreliable, because I don't thrust that he has memorized what he should have"
"Oh my god, that guy's memory is unreliable, because the information will more or less be replaced every time he is exposed to new information"
Out of the two quotes above, I belong to the latter. You have so far been treating the discussion as if I belong to the first one.
It's not interesting how long you can remember the tonic after the last time you played moonlight sonata in the piano, but when that pitch is going to get pushed around by all the music you will listen to between that and when you are going to give the same tonic again, it is likely not going to be the same tonic in your head anymore. Unless, you have absolute pitch.
And since you keep using the "one note implanted"-situation:
If you have a C implanted, then you have ALL notes implanted. And then you have absolute pitch. And therefore, since you have this C as a source, it is totally possible to pitch a car breaking, or anything for that matter. Congratulations, you can now hear anything - that is, if you actually can remember a C at all times ;)
QuoteWhy is perfect picth good to have? I will quote The Fundamentals of Piano Practice (http://www.pianofundamentals.com/book/en/1.III.12):
Well, I didn't exactly want to know that, because it is obviously good to have.
What I meant was: Why is perfect pitch so important that you chose to rephrase Slow's motivational quote, and seemingly listing it
over other things, like intervals?
It is not like you become a bad musician if you don't have absolute pitch. Haha, wouldn't that be sad? And you don't become a good musician just by having it.
Yes, these are theories but they are based on actual studies. Where are your sources that say that absolute pitch is not memory based? And on what would it be based if not on memory? Yes if you remember a C at all times and have a good relative pitch it's probably possible to pitch a car breaking.
About the rephrasing. I guess I changed what Slow said quite much but either way I wasn't really listing it over those things. I was treating them simply as examples of important things to learn. Besides isn't absolute pitch more powerful anyway (for the reasons mentioned in the quote and because you can always hear the correct pitches instead of only hearing the intervals)?
So what's the thing inbetween called when you don't have absolute pitch according to your definition but has it partially (lets say better pitch recognition for a specific instrument than others or maybe not being 100% accurate all the time)?
Oh, well I too think it is memory based, of course, but I just don't agree that people without it can use memory to keep a pitch. I mean, they practically speaking do have absolute pitch if they can hum a C at any time - because then you would always have a determined pitch to use. So this is what I don't believe.
If absolute pitch is more powerful? You could say that, yes, but according to your source only 1 in 10 000 people have it. So it doesn't matter at all to those people. So I don't think it should be listed with the other things.
If you have absolute pitch then you should be able to determine any note played for you.
For what it is worth, I just heard a tenor sax over the radio, and I managed to hear when the sax played an A 8va the ledges, because I recognize how the sax sounds at that note (all saxophonists know what I mean). I dunno about piano, but I could use that A to determine stuff.
But really, i don't know. I'm not sure if I even believe that those piano exmples are cases of pitching without a reference - so I guess I don't have any arguement here.
Quote from: Jompa on May 02, 2013, 02:42:43 AMIf you have absolute pitch then you should be able to determine any note played for you.
For what it is worth, I just heard a tenor sax over the radio, and I managed to hear when the sax played an A 8va the ledges, because I recognize how the sax sounds at that note (all saxophonists know what I mean). I dunno about piano, but I could use that A to determine stuff.
^Exactly my case with the middle C on piano. But I don't trust myself enough with intervals to branch everything off the C so I mentally listen to a song that has said note (that's not middle C) nice and clear so I can hum it directly to that. That's how I hit a note spontaneously.
As for recognizing notes, sometimes I'll do the reverse of the 'listen-to-song-with-note-in-it' method, sometimes I'll just be able to tell from hearing that note so much (only works with some notes), or sometimes I'll just have a gut feeling telling me what it is.
That last one happened to me the other day. There was this band playing a song I knew but forgot about for 10+ years and my "musical instinct" (if you will) said, "E, E, E, F#, G, E, D, D, C#, D, G, etc..." I didn't trust myself enough to use the note names to give the band leader to distinguish the song that I wanted the music for, but once I got the sheet, I found that I could've. I had it right on.
Then relative pitch should make you hear any note in the whole world:)
Quote from: Jompa on May 02, 2013, 02:42:43 AMOh, well I too think it is memory based, of course, but I just don't agree that people without it can use memory to keep a pitch. I mean, they practically speaking do have absolute pitch if they can hum a C at any time - because then you would always have a determined pitch to use. So this is what I don't believe.
So you're basically saying that it depends on memory but depends on something else too? You're basically saying it's unattainable (you said you can't memorize it unless you already have it) unless you're born with it meaning you support the idea of a perfect pitch gene.
Quote from: Jompa on May 02, 2013, 02:42:43 AMIf absolute pitch is more powerful? You could say that, yes, but according to your source only 1 in 10 000 people have it. So it doesn't matter at all to those people. So I don't think it should be listed with the other things.
Yes but the real question is why don't more people have it. I believe it's possible to learn perfect pitch just like any musical skill. Sure it takes more effort but isn't it worth a try? I would say more people don't have it because of the myth surrounding it and the idea that it's unattainable.
Quote from: Jompa on May 02, 2013, 02:42:43 AMIf you have absolute pitch then you should be able to determine any note played for you.
For what it is worth, I just heard a tenor sax over the radio, and I managed to hear when the sax played an A 8va the ledges, because I recognize how the sax sounds at that note (all saxophonists know what I mean). I dunno about piano, but I could use that A to determine stuff.
But really, i don't know. I'm not sure if I even believe that those piano exmples are cases of pitching without a reference - so I guess I don't have any arguement here.
There's no reason why that sax A and a good (great) relative pitch can't be enough for absolute pitch if you we go by your idea that if you know one pitch then you know the others. Try listening to the A on other instruments and notice the differences but mainly the similarities (the actual pitch). It will probably take some practice to transfer the A to other kinds of sounds than saxophone.
Ricky, I believe that you're on the right path. Keep practicing with techniques that are familiar to you. If you're productive and see results, no one can say that you're wrong.
With that, I find interval changes and chord changes a big, big part of aural training. It's probably what I personally rely on the most. If you can "master" that, then move on to basslines. 3rd's, 4th's, and 5th's will help you tremendously.
I don't have perfect pitch, but I have been successful with relative pitch. I hope you can find the same success as I had and I wish you good luck.
Quote from: Ricky on May 02, 2013, 12:42:50 PMSo you're basically saying that it depends on memory but depends on something else too? You're basically saying it's unattainable (you said you can't memorize it unless you already have it) unless you're born with it meaning you support the idea of a perfect pitch gene.
I never said anyone is born with it - it is attained by someone, and not attained by others - and since almost everyone ever agrees that it is attained at a young age, I don't think it can ever be attained by someone later in life either.
But don't care about me, if I believe it is ludicrous, while you think I'm wrong, then in your eyes: It's my loss. So lets just have our separate beliefs for now, noone takes harm in that.Yes, I believe it depends on a reflex as well, that rp-people don't have. Basically a reflex that can make them recognize a tone instantly (as long as they have memorized tone names), like for example hearing that car break and shout out "that was pitched in D" - as I have witnessed, and verified with my recorder I had lying in my bag. I have been told by my ap-friends from school that it acts more like a reflex that instantly tells you that the note you hear is something specific.
Quote from: Ricky on May 02, 2013, 12:42:50 PMYes but the real question is why don't more people have it. I believe it's possible to learn perfect pitch just like any musical skill. Sure it takes more effort but isn't it worth a try? I would say more people don't have it because of the myth surrounding it and the idea that it's unattainable.
Yeeah, I won't say this
isn't a possible outcome - who knows, maybe you'll be revolutionary and become the first person to "train yourself perfect pitch".
But even then it doesn't really matter much, it gives you ability to recognize a note, but in my position, for instance, I don't even need it as long as I have a pitch to go from...which I always have.
Quote from: JDMEK5 on May 02, 2013, 08:15:11 AM^Exactly my case with the middle C on piano. But I don't trust myself enough with intervals to branch everything off the C so I mentally listen to a song that has said note (that's not middle C) nice and clear so I can hum it directly to that. That's how I hit a note spontaneously.
Quote from: Ricky on May 02, 2013, 12:42:50 PMThere's no reason why that sax A and a good (great) relative pitch can't be enough for absolute pitch if you we go by your idea that if you know one pitch then you know the others. Try listening to the A on other instruments and notice the differences but mainly the similarities (the actual pitch). It will probably take some practice to transfer the A to other kinds of sounds than saxophone.
That is correct, HOWEVER: I didn't mean I recognize the pitch - that would be contradicting to about every single thing I've said so far, hahah.
I mean the sound, and therefore not necessarily the pitch, of that written A3 hemholtz - which I should enlighten that isn't actually a "normal" playable note in the sax the bb to F#3 range (it is one of the harmonics that can be "fetched" only by controlled overblowing) - is (I can't really explain this) special (listen to a sound clip or something, I can't explain), not in a bad way (actually, it is awesome, because it takes training to blow it, and when it sounds special it sorta verifies for everyone that you have practiced your harmonics well), and therefore I was able to hear that that tenor sax I heard over the radio played an A at exactly that moment. If you wish, ask a saxophonist who uses harmonics in playing, and they will recognize that A as well. It is kinda cool.
^So basically, no absolute pitch for me:/
And Brassman has just shot us back on topic, so I think we should stay there:)
Not much to discuss anymore anyways, is there?
Yeah this won't lead anywhere as you won't get convinced that absolute pitch can be trained and you won't convince me that it can't.
Lol, nice two pages of tldr you got, thar.
Quote from: Ricky on May 03, 2013, 12:26:11 PMYeah this won't lead anywhere as you won't get convinced that absolute pitch can be trained and you won't convince me that it can't.
sure, my fault.
^Well in addition to that I don't think any of us care anymore.
lol, Olimar.
You just gotta not be such a dick when explaining things, Jompa. It helps. Trust me.
Everyone please stop
That went downhill in a hurry...
@Slow: Another perfectly matching avatar moment! :P