I think I've figured out the problem with the updates:
We're all students trying to be editors/publishers.
This site has the desire to be a free, user-based publisher for VG Music. The free, user-based part denotes the idea of it being a hobby, which it is for most, if not all, of us here. The Publisher part denotes the intention of this being a thriving business, with full time updaters and contributers.
The thing is, that last part takes time and energy that none of us can afford to give the site it requires. Hell, the man who owns it barely has enough time for maintenance, from what I've seen. With all of us being students or have full time jobs, or some combination of the two, we don't have the time to devote to this. In order for updates to be regular, we need a few people on full-time staff whose only job is to run updates, maybe an additional person to act as an editor if needed. The thing is, the only way people would agree to this is the prospect of being paid, or otherwise compensated for their time.
In order for this site to flourish it needs time, care, and attention. Yes, things are better than they were a few years ago during the great drought, but the site isn't exactly thriving. We have the content, but none of the ambition to do anything with it.
Those two people who were just hired? They have other obligations, more pressing ones than attending to this hobby of ours. Now if this changes over the next few weeks and updates start flowing in, then congratulations, you've found something that works. If not, then you need to find people who can devote themselves to this site. This site has the potential of become the largest Piano-based VG Music site on the internet, yes it already is, but but we've only cracked the surface of the amount of music out there.
tl;dr Stop running the site as a hobby, start running it as a business. Find dedicated, full-time updaters.
Quote from: MaestroUGC on January 01, 2013, 06:26:49 PMStop running the site as a hobby, start running it as a business. Find dedicated, full-time updaters.
What motivation is there for people to be full-time updaters? There's no incentive.
That's the point I was trying to get across.
Come on, guys. We've had longer delays in updates in the past, just be patient. Deku and I have been discussing sheets via pm and we're pretty much there. Expect it soon, but don't complain if its not as soon as you wanted. Complaining doesn't really speed it up, you know :P
I don't think we're complaining. Just bringing to your attention the fact that pretty much anyone who looks at the site will have noticed the delay. What is the reason for it, may I inquire?
It doesn't really matter
Spit's right, but if you must know I've been rather busy with commissions. Idk about the others tho.
I think maestro is right. It's true that, as a hobby and runned by us, students, this place will never be in the order we want, but if we run this place as bussiness men, and see this as a job oportunity (we could get jobs as official arrangers, composers, pianists, etc), damn, we would be unstoppable! I mean, we have the biggest videogame arrangements website in the whole world, we have great arrangers, great musicians, full of talent and will for doing good things, with two common interests: Video Games and music.
If we could put a little more effort, and find some way to disclose this place, I think that very good things would happen!
Quote from: MaestroUGC on January 01, 2013, 06:26:49 PMThe thing is, that last part takes time and energy that none of us can afford to give the site it requires. Hell, the man who owns it barely has enough time for maintenance, from what I've seen. With all of us being students or have full time jobs, or some combination of the two, we don't have the time to devote to this.
I have the time, my evenings are mostly free. But not always the motivation. In the holidays it's not so bad because I just spend my days practicing, but when I'm at uni and have theory classes and homework, I don't really want to come home and do what I guess amounts to more theory. It's not that I don't want to check sheets, it's just that it's not easy, and at times a little frustrating.
If anyone's got any ways of making checking sheets easier, I'll give them a hug :P
Quote from: DekuTrombonist on January 03, 2013, 05:54:16 AMIf anyone's got any ways of making checking sheets easier, I'll give them a hug :P
For my sheets, at least, the mods are usually the first to critique them :-\. I've noticed that if I can get even one critique from someone in the community, the submission process runs smoothly and you guys have to spend very little time on them. No real way of fixing that, though.
Well, we could try to get things going and get people to provide feedback on the sheets.... I know I try to....
Well, I'll have classes from 7 to 9 of January, then I'll be on vacation untill March 18th, I can give it a try :)
Quote from: TheZeldaPianist275 on January 03, 2013, 07:24:55 PMWell, we could try to get things going and get people to provide feedback on the sheets.... I know I try to....
I try to critique a sheet if I know the song. Problem is, I not a lot of people post songs that I know well. :P
Quote from: TheZeldaPianist275 on January 03, 2013, 07:24:55 PMWell, we could try to get things going and get people to provide feedback on the sheets.... I know I try to....
The problem is that not all arrangers know a lot about musical notation, scales and all that stuff. I try to do my best, but my musical knowledge cannot be compared with that of DekuTrombonist, Shadoninja, Olimar12345 or other great arrangers. :-\
Quote from: ALPRAS on January 04, 2013, 08:17:58 AMWell, I'll have classes from 7 to 9 of January, then I'll be on vacation untill March 18th, I can give it a try :)
On vacation until March 18th... Classes from 7 to 9 of January... hmmmm... Wanna change lives? :D
Quote from: WarioMan98On vacation until March 18th... Classes from 7 to 9 of January... hmmmm... Wanna change lives? :D
Sorry, vacations until February 18th :D
Quote from: ALPRAS on January 04, 2013, 08:55:17 AMSorry, vacations until February 18th :D
But still! :o :D
Quote from: ALPRAS on January 03, 2013, 05:02:08 AMI think maestro is right. It's true that, as a hobby and runned by us, students, this place will never be in the order we want, but if we run this place as bussiness men, and see this as a job oportunity (we could get jobs as official arrangers, composers, pianists, etc), damn, we would be unstoppable! I mean, we have the biggest videogame arrangements website in the whole world, we have great arrangers, great musicians, full of talent and will for doing good things, with two common interests: Video Games and music.
If we could put a little more effort, and find some way to disclose this place, I think that very good things would happen!
The only way we could run this as a business is if people get paid.
Maestro, I understand what you mean by having dedidacted arrangers and updaters and running this like a business, but I feel that would take all of the fun out of it. Think about it: why are we here? We didnt come here to make a business of arranging sheets (at least I hope so :P) we came here so that we could arrange songs for instruments that we cant find anywhere else. Now why do we play instruments? If you're not getting paid to do it, then why spend hours a day practicing? It's because its FUN. Being able to create music from a piece of carved wood with strings or some other object is amazing in itself, and thats why its so popular as a hobby or even a job. Starting with a blank sheet of virtual paper and turning it into a lengthy piano solo is accomplishing, especially when you can then share your creation to the rest of the internet. Think of a wiki style website. Why do people edit the wiki when there's plenty of other things they could be doing? When they sit down and write a well thought out article or page, suddenly everyone on the internet can read it. Its a sense of accomplishment. Why do we put our names on the sheets that we arrange? You can give any reason you want, whether it be someone stealing it, a need for people to recognize us, etc., but in the end its all for credit. I'm not saying everyone who puts their name on a sheet is greedy for recognition, but we could just as easily NOT put our names on every sheet we arrange and submit, but that would definitely drop the number of arrangers we have here.
Hm. I think I started straying from the topic XD. Basically what I'm saying is that NSM starts to become more like a business, those who come here for fun will be pushed away and it will lose its purpose of being a place where people come to create and enjoy music
And also I honeslty dont think we should pay anyone to do this. Where would the money come from anyway?
If I could get paid for this I would.
But who would pay you? Actually, I have no idea how websites work :P I thought you had to pay money for them
I don't think turning it into more of a business (nonprofit of course) is a problem. It would make the site more accessible and professional and would not in the least detract from any sort of enjoyment gained from being a member on the forums.
We'd also possibly get a gaming company or two knocking on our proverbial door. I think they're fine with hobbyists doing this, but if we register ourselves as a business whose main work is copying of others'... not so much.
Quote from: Cobraroll on January 04, 2013, 02:31:06 PMWe'd also possibly get a gaming company or two knocking on our proverbial door. I think they're fine with hobbyists doing this, but if we register ourselves as a business whose main work is copying of others'... not so much.
Well, we always put copyright in our sheets, so I think that wouldn't be a serious problem. We never claim that the songs we arrange are ours.
Quote from: Shadoninja on January 04, 2013, 10:51:45 AMThe only way we could run this as a business is if people get paid.
When I said that we should run this as a bussiness, I meant to say to run this site more professionaly... We could make it a nonprofit bussiness :)
Am I the only one who thinks that we should take this conversation into another topic? :P
Alpras is right, guys. Quit spamming this place up. -__-
Alright, topic splitting here we come!
Well, if we actually had some paid staff things would definitely be more active. But the thing is, there's no way we're going to be able to do that.
First of all, the site would actually have to generate revenue to even consider that. I'm a student and although I have a part-time job I don't really have any money to throw around. Plus there's probably some fun bureaucracy involved if I actually paid salary to someone.
Of course there's always the option of advertisements on the site. That's how many websites earn money. However, I'm strongly against ads on NSM, as that would be just me profiting from others' work. I'm also not sure where exactly we stand on the copyright-spectrum and prefer to keep things non-profit just in case.
What about donations? Heaps of places have them ranging from VgMusic to speedrun streamers.
Quote from: DekuTrombonist on January 05, 2013, 02:35:46 AMWhat about donations? Heaps of places have them ranging from VgMusic to speedrun streamers.
That's.... a great ideia! :D
I approve! (Who needs my approval anyway xD)
Quote from: DekuTrombonist on January 05, 2013, 02:35:46 AMWhat about donations? Heaps of places have them ranging from VgMusic to speedrun streamers.
Excellent idea!
Ok, now crazy idea I just had, how about charging like 0,05 cents for each download on site too? Of course, all would be free for NSM arrangers. We could also make a private zone in the forums only for arrangers where songs could be discussed and corrected before uploading. Obviously, that zone wouldn't be open to newbies at arranging who just arrange 3 or 4 arrangements before they leave, instead, it would be open for moderators and staff (of course) and arrangers who had already done a good amount of work and are more less constant with their work.
That way we could provide even more professional sheets and for example, the more times a arrangement is bought, the more money the arranger of that arrangement earns, so it could also be an incentive to the arrangers to make their arrangements as perfect as possible. With that and with donations, I think NSM could be a nice little business. We could always try for some time to see if it really works though.
EDIT: Oh yes, almost forgot. The sheets on site could have a preview page. You know, too check it before purchasing. It could be the first page if it has more than 1 pages, or just half a page if it only has 1 page. Oh! And the more difficult and long the song arranged, the more expensive it is. It would be unfair to charge 5 cents for both a 1 page arrangement and a 6 page arrangement.
EDIT 2: Aaaand... to become an official NSM arranger you would have to present a sample of your work to the staff.
Whatcha think?
Quote from: WarioMan98 on January 05, 2013, 05:18:36 AMOk, now crazy idea I just had, how about charging like 0,05 cents for each download on site too? Of course, all would be free for NSM arrangers. We could also make a private zone in the forums only for arrangers where songs could be discussed and corrected before uploading. Obviously, that zone wouldn't be open to newbies at arranging who just arrange 3 or 4 arrangements before they leave, instead, it would be open for moderators and staff (of course) and arrangers who had already done a good amount of work and are more less constant with their work.
That way we could provide even more professional sheets and for example, the more times a arrangement is bought, the more money the arranger of that arrangement earns, so it could also be an incentive to the arrangers to make their arrangements as perfect as possible. With that and with donations, I think NSM could be a nice little business. We could always try for some time to see if it really works though.
I do not support this at all. I would never use this site if I had to pay for the sheets.
Quote from: Waddle Bro on January 05, 2013, 05:23:11 AMI do not support this at all. I would never use this site if I had to pay for the sheets.
Well, yeah, it may be a bad idea after all...
Oh yes, a paywall would be just great for alienating all our users.
Donations are one, but I don't really see it working. I doubt we'd see that much money out of them and then if we divided it across multiple updaters. Then there's also the hosting costs which I'm currently paying.
I'd assume a paid updater/arranger/staff member would expect at least a decent amount of money for the work. I doubt we can raise any amount of money that's worthwhile of anyone's time.
Quote from: WarioMan98 on January 05, 2013, 05:18:36 AMOk, now crazy idea I just had, how about charging like 0,05 cents for each download on site too? Of course, all would be free for NSM arrangers. We could also make a private zone in the forums only for arrangers where songs could be discussed and corrected before uploading. Obviously, that zone wouldn't be open to newbies at arranging who just arrange 3 or 4 arrangements before they leave, instead, it would be open for moderators and staff (of course) and arrangers who had already done a good amount of work and are more less constant with their work.
That way we could provide even more professional sheets and for example, the more times a arrangement is bought, the more money the arranger of that arrangement earns, so it could also be an incentive to the arrangers to make their arrangements as perfect as possible. With that and with donations, I think NSM could be a nice little business. We could always try for some time to see if it really works though.
EDIT: Oh yes, almost forgot. The sheets on site could have a preview page. You know, too check it before purchasing. It could be the first page if it has more than 1 pages, or just half a page if it only has 1 page. Oh! And the more difficult and long the song arranged, the more expensive it is. It would be unfair to charge 5 cents for both a 1 page arrangement and a 6 page arrangement.
EDIT 2: Aaaand... to become an official NSM arranger you would have to present a sample of your work to the staff.
I know this idea has already been shot down, but we'd still get copyright problems from Game companies. The moment you bring money and someone elses work together, the original owner screams for their 'fair share' which would be a mighty sum, or threatens to sue, which would cause more hassle then a bunch of even professional musicians can afford!
Quote from: Jamaha on January 05, 2013, 06:07:03 AMI'd assume a paid updater/arranger/staff member would expect at least a decent amount of money for the work. I doubt we can raise any amount of money that's worthwhile of anyone's time.
I guess we'd have to put a price on updates. Updaters, how much do you think the effort that an update takes, costs? (Bear in mind, that a person that works an hour at KFC get just $7.50 [approximately]).
Well just know that if more help is needed, I'm standing by; ready for action. (For free)
I'm not very busy at all currently and it doesn't look like things are going to pick up too much anytime soon. So I've got time.
Unfortunately that's what they all say.
I find that a fee of any kind, no matter how small, is still a deterrent for people who just want to play piano music. Even if the fee is insignificant, you still have to go through the transaction process and I, for one, would be too lazy to go through that every time I wanted a new sheet. (On the other hand, if the transaction was automatic...)
I wouldn't use the site if I had to pay. The only way to get them free is to nab them before they go on the site. To prevent that, we'd have to limit access which would also limit feedback which would probably lower quality.
Agreeing with Dudeman.
I still believe a stricter schedule would do some good. Gather the uploaders, give them a week each to be responsible for uploading at least something, and a place to discuss this schedule in quiet (a mod-only subforum, which might already exist). Plan ahead a few weeks and see how things turn out.
Also, I suspect the way we currently do uploads, we paint ourselves into a corner. Once a submission thread is up, people expect everything in it to be uploaded as a big update. People are promised a big update, and the mods see they have to do a big update. Restrictions might be thrown around to shrink the workload somewhat, but there still is a set number of sheets to go through. And the current mentality calls for uploading it all in one big go, prioritizing doing the update as a whole over doing the update on time.
I propose giving the uploaders the option to split the updates into as many pieces as is required to make an update on time. I prefer seeing three songs going up every week, gradually emptying a 20-submission uploading thread in six weeks, rather than having to wait for two months for those 20 arrangements to be uploaded in one go. I'm still all for having submission threads, but I don't think we necessarily have to empty them in one sitting.
It would mean less spectacular updates. Maybe some arrangements wouldn't even be mentioned in the news on the front page until weeks after they are uploaded. But I think we should strive towards regularity in the updates, no matter how pitifully small each update is. Of course, the mods should preferrably aim towards emptying the thread in as few updates as possible, but when life gets in the way, we can allow ourselves to settle for the next best thing. I'd rather see a disappointingly small update than be disappointed by a lack of updates.
Also, as an update thread gradually shrinks, and the best songs are uploaded (a perfectly formatted song won't need much attention before it can be put on site), the imperfect arrangements will remain as the only obstacle before a new thread can be made (so that people can get more of their songs on site). If we make those imperfect arrangements easy enough to see, impatient users can make the mods work faster by helping them polishing the arrangements and shining them up to standard. They don't have to edit the sheets, just point out the errors. This isn't as easy to do when the imperfect arrangement is one among thirty, and only the mods look through them, but if there are three or four sheets left in the thread, it's easier for the community to see them and fix them, so a new thread can be made (or alternatively, deem them unfit for update at all, voting to ditch them until necessary changes are made, and make a new thread already).
TL;DR: Half an update, a quarter of an update, or even a tenth of an update is better than no update at all. Currently, our updates are like rain in Bangladesh: Far too little for far too long, then suddenly a burst so intense that it's hard to appreciate, then a new drought comes.
Oh, and it's 1 AM here, and I've been up since 9, so this post might not be coherent. Better not make any more paragraphs in it now.
There is absolutely no chance this site can ever become anything a user will have to pay for.
Agreed. NSM should be free. Always.
NSM has to be a free, non-profit site in order to remain open. Because of the content, the moment we start accepting money for it is the moment all these other companies can start bringing down their hammers to shut us down on the grounds of profiting off of copyrighted material.
This also means donations shouldn't be accepted as well. Paying updaters and the like is not a likely scenario because of this, unless the owner of the site starts feeling generous or the site gains a benefactor. In order to get people who would willingly devote most of their time to this site, they must be compensated in some form to justify their time. Hobbyists come and go, as we have seen in abundance on this site.
The current updaters could work, but not with the way updates are done now. A new method must be implemented to ensure content goes up at least semi-regularly. I would have a system where people submit their arrangements to an email (or something similar) only the updaters and owner can access; sumbiters will send their works there, and the updaters would comb through them one at a time as they can. They look over each one and either accept it or reject it, replying to the sender as such with comments for what needs to be fixed if rejected. If they are accpeted then they set it aside somewhere to be added to the site on the next update (bulk-updates) or just throw it on the site and jot the name down for the update post (posted every week).
They can go through it starting with the oldest, and they can quickly find and reject any duplicate submissions (multiple people submitting the same work). It will not be the updaters responsibility to fix any issues with the sheet, so the arrangers would still need to forums for assistance and tweaking if needed. Submissions will need to be formatted correctly otherwise they will be overlooked, propmting new users to come to the forums for additional quality control.
An idea for smoother, or at least less tasking updates.
^ That is already being planned. Not an email but a submit form on the site.
If only I had the time to actually implement it.
UGC's suggestion, where updates come continuously as the sheets are submitted, will work when the new site comes, but until then, we have to work within the limits of what we already have. As stated above, I'm for a forum-based submission system. It allows people to comment on each other's arrangements and submissions (and, most importantly, the requests) and help each other and the mods out on making the sheets ready for upload.
What hinders us from having regular updates at the moment is lack of time on the uploaders' part, and time-demanding submission threads taking forever to go through and upload. The problem could be amended by reducing the size of each update. I'm for a culture where regularity of updates is more important than size of updates, and if modders only have time to go through one third of the submissions thread in time, then let them upload that third and be happy with it, rather than putting uploading off another week.
We could have the regular system with upload threads which are closed after a certain number of submissions. The best sheets have highest priority and will be uploaded first. The posts wherein they are made would be deleted and the thread kept until all submissions in it are given fair judgement. When few submissions are left to upload, the thread could be opened for discussion of those few attention-needing sheets, so we all can cooperate on fixing them. When everything is uploaded, however long that may take, we make a new thread. As long as something hits the main page with regular intervals, we will keep visitors checking our site.