It would be a great idea to put difficulty settings on all the sheet music, the reason I say this is because there are people of all skill levels and will see pieces that they want to play but then realise that the piece of music is too advanced for them ~ it would be easier to just be able to scroll through the music with just a note of the difficulty beside each piece ~ (perhaps a typical colour system : green(easy) yellow (advanced) red (very advanced) etc. :) please do this!
I like the setup that we have already
This has been suggested multiple times in the past, with the biggest problem being that difficulty is relative to the player. Unfortunately, I doubt we'll actually implement a system like this.
Well, as far as difficulty being relative to the player, here (http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/help/level-guidelines) is a rather unbiased system.
...It'd be tedious as hell to implement, though, especially on all of the sheets we already have.
It wouldn't be that hard if you grouped multiple groups together: i.e. 1 star = primer-2, 2 star = 3-4, 3 star = 5-6, 4 star = 7-8, 5 star = 9-10
I think something like this would be amazing (and going through all the sheets would couple well with the Fixing the Sheets project.)
Quote from: Olimar12345 on September 24, 2013, 08:20:22 AMUnfortunately, I doubt we'll actually implement a system like this.
If we are going to categorize the difficulty, we need to let everyone know what the scale is IF it is implemented. It shouldnt be too diffiuclt, But I do agree, that difficulty is in the eye of the beholder, especially given the huge ranges of music that we have... just cause something is classed as "easy" doesnt mean that it is for a particular person.
This is still a bad idea. Even that sheet music plus rating system really isn't that reliable.
Quote from: SlowPokemon on September 25, 2013, 05:35:01 AMThis is still a bad idea. Even that sheet music plus rating system really isn't that reliable.
Quote from: Olimar12345 on September 24, 2013, 08:20:22 AMThis has been suggested multiple times in the past, with the biggest problem being that difficulty is relative to the player. Unfortunately, I doubt we'll actually implement a system like this.
Agreed and Agreed
Quote from: SlowPokemon on September 25, 2013, 05:35:01 AMEven that sheet music plus rating system really isn't that reliable.
That list is exactly what the Royal Conservatory uses when determining the grade level of a song. That's a pretty widely accepted system. (And I mean, widely)
I've been using NinSheetMusic for several years and I like the display just how it is; I don't care how hard the song is as long as it sounds accurate. If it's hard that just means I'll have to practice more. Not sure if others would think the same way, but...
Yeah.
That's kind of how I did it. If I wanted to play a song and the arrangement was hard, I practiced until I could do it :P
^Or I just simplified it down a little on the spot.
Quote from: NocturneOfShadow on September 25, 2013, 12:35:30 PMI've been using NinSheetMusic for several years and I like the display just how it is; I don't care how hard the song is as long as it sounds accurate. If it's hard that just means I'll have to practice more. Not sure if others would think the same way, but...
Yeah.
This
I agree with the accuracy in terms of recreating the music... If it is a hard piece, we put in the work for the stuff we love.
Quote from: NocturneOfShadow on September 25, 2013, 12:35:30 PMI've been using NinSheetMusic for several years and I like the display just how it is; I don't care how hard the song is as long as it sounds accurate. If it's hard that just means I'll have to practice more. Not sure if others would think the same way, but...
Yeah.
Quote from: fank009 on September 25, 2013, 10:21:21 PMThis
I agree with the accuracy in terms of recreating the music... If it is a hard piece, we put in the work for the stuff we love.
Totally
The goal of NSM is not about how simplistic it is for the ease of users - not entirely, at least - but more the accuracy we all do in transcribing and arranging the soundtrack.
Quote from: fank009 on September 25, 2013, 10:21:21 PMThis
I agree with the accuracy in terms of recreating the music... If it is a hard piece, we put in the work for the stuff we love.
Very much so. :)
What all of you guys are saying is true, just remember that an arrangement is practically worthless if no one can play it. Accuracy is important, but it's also important to pick and choose carefully so that your arrangement is practical as well. As Olimar once said, this isn't NinMidiMusic.
No song in the world is TOO hard for somebody to play. The only factor is how hard they are willing to work. Some people would say Maple Leaf Rag is a hard song, but I'm learning it right now. It CAN be hard because it literally has a physical limit(your hands have to be big enough), but you don't HAVE to play the entire octave. It's not necessary to play the octave to enjoy the fact that you're playing a hundred year old song.(maybe this post doesn't make sense to anyone else but me :P Oh well.)
It's a piece not a song. And well, we're talking about different things. Maple Leaf Rag is a fine difficulty level. With some arrangers it's at the point where every arrangement is on the level of Chopin's Revolutionary Étude.
xD
Touche.
Quote from: SlowPokemon on September 26, 2013, 07:06:16 AMWith some arrangers it's at the point where every arrangement is on the level of Chopin's Revolutionary Étude.
I feel as if that was directed at me.
Actually, Dahans. Yours are at least supposed to be virtuoso xD
Lol yeah I was actually thinking of like three other people, Maestro. xD
Oh, so what my arrangements aren't good enough to be considered difficult?
Oh-ho, I'll show you all yet.
^Makes the most advanced version of Palace Theme from AoL yet
Ok wait, I'm failing to understand how the fact that every song is playable undermines the need for a difficulty rating system. I'm not saying we need one (I've always kinda not cared whether this one goes one way or the other), but saying that someone can eventually get a song by practicing it is like telling somebody who wants fruit that they can eventually eat some if they plant the seeds and tend the tree for a while (a shitty analogy, I know, but work with me here). Sure, we can all become virtuosos if we practice, but that doesn't mean we don't want to know whether a piece is going to be hard as shit or manageable when we're first starting off.
Again, I'm not saying we have to do this; I'm just saying that the idea isn't just easily dismissed by saying "go practice".
._. it worked for me :/
Why the hell do we need a difficulty system if we can just look at the sheet to determine the skill level? Jesus. It's just unnecessary.
See, now that's a better argument. This just seemed like it had turned into a discussion of "why it's ok that sheets are difficult" rather than "why we should/shouldn't rate their difficulty".
I was gonna argue that MaestroUGC doesn't only make virtuoso music, but I'll just leave it at that.
Are you calling me a liar?
This has been bugging me for a while now:
Grammar nazi alert: Maestro made VERTUOSIC music, not VERTUOSO music. Virtuoso is a noun, vertuosic is an adjective.
Virtuosic* you mean.
Spelling Nazi alert
Shit xD
You know spelling isn't my forte!
No, what I meant that you don't only arrange virtuosic music and do a great job with other regular arrangements, better then dahans (no offense to dahans on any behalf way). I just didn't think there was a need to continue that conversation, being that this thread is about "Difficult setting" crap and whatnot.
edit ;; shit well the browser just auto-corrects it to "virtuoso" so idk really.
and:
Quote from: MaestroUGC on September 26, 2013, 12:55:03 PMVirtuosic* you mean.
You have other arrangements, some of which are/were on the site. Don't lie.
Quote from: Olimar12345 on September 26, 2013, 01:05:09 PMYou have other arrangements, some of which are/were on the site.
and you do a stunning job with your all-around arranging
goodness don't take this personal maestro1 I'm just complimenting you to a high standard
I don't think he's used to it :P
Quote from: Olimar12345 on September 26, 2013, 01:00:41 PMYou know spelling isn't my forte!
I'm a terrible speller too. LoL
:P maestro is actually the best musician on the site tbh, his passion for classical music inspires me.
Hoho, you'd be surprised, slow. Not to nock maestro, but there are other fantastic musicians here (some I would say were on par/farther than maestro, though ranking people in this fashion is rather childish...)
Heck with rating difficulties of songs; let's rate difficulties of other peoples musicianship! XD
Please don't call me the best, that's a title I'm not willing to accept. Just say I'm your favorite, that's much easier to handle. And I would agree there are musicians who are farther advanced than me, there's always somebody better. I'm just doing what I like and if other people enjoy it, well that's just wonderful.
Quote from: MaestroUGC on September 26, 2013, 06:26:26 PMPlease don't call me the best, that's a title I'm not willing to accept.
That's exactly the point. :)
Quote from: Olimar12345 on September 26, 2013, 06:02:57 PMHoho, you'd be surprised, slow. Not to nock maestro, but there are other fantastic musicians here (some I would say were on par/farther than maestro, though ranking people in this fashion is rather childish...)
hi
just kidding
This sounded like a good idea to me, for guys like me who are only grade 5 piano.
Quote from: Olimar12345 on September 24, 2013, 08:20:22 AMThis has been suggested multiple times in the past, with the biggest problem being that difficulty is relative to the player. Unfortunately, I doubt we'll actually implement a system like this.
Well then, why doesn't the player decide the difficulty?
Because we have more than one person downloading any given sheet :| and they're all at different skill levels. Something that's easy to one may not be to another.
I meant the arranger.
You can go ahead and rate the difficulty of arrangements yourself, say perhaps in your own arrangement topic, but it's not a requirement and it seems too vague to ever be one.
Alright. That's too bad. I guess I can try to rate them myself.
I'll put in my 2 cents here. Coming from a classical background, the exam boards would put "levels" around all kinds of rep. Rarely were these ever accurate; I had multiple occasions where I'd go "That's only level ____?!" or, "How is this not level _____?!".
As has been said, difficulty is individual. I also disagree somewhat with the "practice even if it's too hard" somewhat; if a piece is truly beyond your capabilities it's generally better to go on a more conservative path to learn other pieces to help you with your goal piece. This doesn't apply as much to the kind of music arranged here, as it's fairly simple to simplify the piece enough, vs classical where you follow the score as written nine times out of ten.
It may help to put difficulty tags next to a specific score, however, that informs the player of certain technical problems that may come up in the piece (lots of fast octaves, big chord leaps, fast arpeggios, etc.), so that they don't go "What the #&%@? This sounds easy!" or something similar.
Take care all~
Quote from: Pianist Da Sootopolis on February 25, 2015, 01:47:33 PMI'll put in my 2 cents here. Coming from a classical background, the exam boards would put "levels" around all kinds of rep. Rarely were these ever accurate; I had multiple occasions where I'd go "That's only level ____?!" or, "How is this not level _____?!".
As has been said, difficulty is individual. I also disagree somewhat with the "practice even if it's too hard" somewhat; if a piece is truly beyond your capabilities it's generally better to go on a more conservative path to learn other pieces to help you with your goal piece. This doesn't apply as much to the kind of music arranged here, as it's fairly simple to simplify the piece enough, vs classical where you follow the score as written nine times out of ten.
It may help to put difficulty tags next to a specific score, however, that informs the player of certain technical problems that may come up in the piece (lots of fast octaves, big chord leaps, fast arpeggios, etc.), so that they don't go "What the #&%@? This sounds easy!" or something similar.
Take care all~
I agree. Eventhough I just picked up playing piano, I already feel that difficulty is individual. So I think a really precise rating is nothing that can be achieved, but you can still give some general rating... I mean... If I look at some of Chopin's or Liszt's stuff (La Danza for example...), I know that I do not even need to start to practice that shit right now...
Moreso, just giving an overview of the hardest components is a good way to warn people.
Also, there IS easier Liszt, it's out there! He has a lovely E minor romance that's quite doable!
Quote from: Pianist Da Sootopolis on February 25, 2015, 04:31:42 PMMoreso, just giving an overview of the hardest components is a good way to warn people.
Also, there IS easier Liszt, it's out there! He has a lovely E minor romance that's quite doable!
Not yet for me! But soon! Soon(ish)...
Then do some Chopin before we derail this thread more than we already have. PM me if you need suggestions!
(That goes for anyone else reading!)
Actually, I do kinda like the "tags" idea. Basically, it would help users identify why some sheets could cause problems. Tags for stuff like "awkward transitions", "pieces that go really fast" or "chords span more than one octave" (less easy if you've not grown up yet), but also for things like "suitable for beginners". I know we have a couple of sheets here so easy you could play them within a month of playing the piano (SM64 File Select comes to mind), and simply singling out those would be a great benefit for some visitors. If you want to get into piano game music, it's a little disheartening to have to scroll through dozens of seemingly-impossible sheets before you find something you can play.
This is also why I advocate having two versions of some arrangements. Not one basic and one virtouso (because if you can play the virtouso level, you're probably good enough to spruce up the basic sheet through improvisation), but one basic sheet and one simplified version. Certain themes can be done simple, and serve as a great gateway to the wonderful world of NSM.
In due time, of course.
Would there also be tags for more stylistic and textural difficulties instead of just having tags for technical difficulties? I don't think those are much of a concern in video game music, but they're still things.
I actually really like the idea of a tag "suitable for beginners", or even perhaps a tab for beginner friendly sheets. Said sheets would also be in their proper place in the NSM library, but a separate beginner tab would be a great idea for the new piano players.
I really support this idea of some kind of difficulty setting, and the tags idea seems like it would work well. When I first came here way back when I forgot how to play the piano I looked though tons of sheets before I found a few I was comfortable with.
And I had this idea of having simplified versions as well. In my head a "simplify some sheets" project seemed like a good idea but then again I don't want to disrespect the arranger by undoing their work and taking things out.
Could we also just have a section of user submitted songs (or, in this case, etudes) specifically for helping people learn piano? Not everyone can afford the method books they'd like...
Quote from: Pianist Da Sootopolis on February 26, 2015, 05:44:58 PMCould we also just have a section of user submitted songs (or, in this case, etudes) specifically for helping people learn piano? Not everyone can afford the method books they'd like...
Of course we COULD, but aren't we going a bit offtopic with that? I have no idea how expensive those method books are, though.
Quote from: Pianist Da Sootopolis on February 26, 2015, 05:44:58 PMCould we also just have a section of user submitted songs (or, in this case, etudes) specifically for helping people learn piano? Not everyone can afford the method books they'd like...
This is a bad idea. Everything would have to be original for one thing or else we'd get sued and shut down. Also, we aren't aspiring-pianist-babysitters who are obligated to help people learn piano. I'm a teacher and I do that at work. I'm all for helping folks learn but let's make a different site for that. Not only that but we don't have to. There's tons of free music on the internet if you take the time to look.
No, we certainly don't have to. Also, any exercise that works on a technical skill is protected under fair use if given only for education. We just protect it with copyright XDDD
As for making a different site, that would imply keeping up another site... do we have the manpower for that? I honestly don't know so I'm asking.
Maybe have a separate section of the Creativity Corner for user submitted content. Which, in turn, could be etudes.
@Xaoz, they go upwards of $30 a volume where I'm at.
It's perfectly fine to have a little board somewhere in the forums for such a thing if you want. But unless they're interested I don't think the higher-ups around here are going to be interested in starting a 'piano education' site. If they are, I and a number of other people are going to have something to say to them..
I kind of like the difficulty mark and the tags. If we're going to have a difficulty I think a scale of 5 is enough. 1=Really Easy, 2=Easy, 3=Moderate, 4=Hard, 5=Very Hard. We might take some of the site's arrangement as examples to facilitate grading. I think it's possible to make a fairly objective grading, we might take the easiest arrangements on the site and give them a 1, and the hardest arrangements and give them a 5, and after that cover up in between. The only concern might be if it makes submitting take longer time or if other problems arise, then we might disregard it.
A scale wouldn't really work though, because then we have to establish the standard for something being difficult. And what if something is beyond 5? Most of Bespinben's stuff would probably fall into that XD
The tags idea is completely objective in that it's a list of technical difficulties. If say, the main difficult of a piece is chromatic octaves, then it would say something like "Rapid Chromatic Octaves". But, if you're like me and have a hand perfectly suited to such a task (shame it doesn't come up more really), then it wouldn't be an issue. But, if you can't play differing hand rhythms to save your life (Pyrite Town from Pokemon Colosseum comes to mind), then you'd know that it's harder, instead of just a scale.
A combination of the two would be interesting, but I see the tags being a lot more informative.
The issue with the tags, though, is that then we have to find someone to go through all new submitted sheets and tag them for difficulties. Do we put that on the arranger? That doesn't seem to make sense. Probably we'd have a volunteer group of people go through them (I'd be more than happy to!) or something of the sort.
Quote from: MaestroUGC on February 25, 2015, 05:49:30 PMBespinben is, at best, a warm up. Trust me.
-------------------------------------------------
It's a cool idea. I like it a lot. I just think with all the other lofty goals of NSM, this would fall at the bottom of the priority list. Keeping regular updates for the past 6 months is already an NSM miracle.
Why do we even need a scale that will only be relative in the end anyway. Literally looking at the sheet will be enough to tell the pianist if it's their skill level or not.
Quote from: Bespinben on April 12, 2015, 06:50:41 PM-------------------------------------------------
It's a cool idea. I like it a lot. I just think with all the other lofty goals of NSM, this would fall at the bottom of the priority list. Keeping regular updates for the past 6 months is already an NSM miracle.
I agree. There are still other goals on nsm we want and that would be put on the bottom..... :/
Quote from: SlowPokemon on April 12, 2015, 06:51:47 PMWhy do we even need a scale that will only be relative in the end anyway. Literally looking at the sheet will be enough to tell the pianist if it's their skill level or not.
^
Checking to see what difficulty they are would just waste the Updaters valuable time when just looking at it would tell you the difficulty.
Just looking at music doesn't always tell you the difficulties, especially for beginners who are just starting to read music, who won't recognize things like octaves, thirds, etc. as difficult right off the bat.
I can see the argument of there being more important things to do. Perhaps we could get a way for the NSM community to actively participate in furthering these goals? That's also a lofty goal in and of itself, so it's somewhat paradoxical in nature to try..
Quote from: Pianist Da Sootopolis on April 12, 2015, 07:25:28 PMJust looking at music doesn't always tell you the difficulties, especially for beginners who are just starting to read music, who won't recognize things like octaves, thirds, etc. as difficult right off the bat.
I can see the argument of there being more important things to do. Perhaps we could get a way for the NSM community to actively participate in furthering these goals? That's also a lofty goal in and of itself, so it's somewhat paradoxical in nature to try..
imo not a lot of the sheets here are focused on "for beginners who are just starting to read music"
Quote from: NocturneOfShadow on April 12, 2015, 08:28:41 PMimo not a lot of the sheets here are focused on "for beginners who are just starting to read music"
Here's a perfect one! Bespinben's https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/35209091/PMD3DS%20-%20Pok%C3%A9mon%20Paradise%201.pdf (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/35209091/PMD3DS%20-%20Pok%C3%A9mon%20Paradise%201.pdf)
I must agree though that in theory these ideas sound great, but as a community it's hard to get things done on top of projects we already have... :(
If someone who wanders onto NSM is seriously interested in playing our sheets, they'll probably look through many sheets on their own and probably hop on the forums like I did.
All that said, I'm willing to help with whatever can be done.
As am I! I can't guarantee the ability and or time to do everything, but I'll do everything I possibly can!
Quote from: SlowPokemon on April 12, 2015, 06:51:47 PMWhy do we even need a scale that will only be relative in the end anyway. Literally looking at the sheet will be enough to tell the pianist if it's their skill level or not.
Slow wins the prize.
He's not always right though... Some sheets can be extremely tricky when they look fine to begin with. Sootopolis City, a few months ago, was one example that I struggled with a lot; in the middle of it you have to balance I think two voices that intertwine with each other in weird and freaky ways (I dropped the middle voice; it isn't that important).
The tags system certainly wouldn't hurt.
That's true and it's not a bad idea. I just have to be the douche who points out that it sounds unnecessary.
Well, fair enough then. This is NSM after all ;D
If you need some beginner sheets, I know of a bunch and tell you them if you want :)
We could have a thread here that says that.
Quote from: Pianist Da Sootopolis on April 13, 2015, 04:13:54 PMWe could have a thread here that says that.
But then what about those people who want medium difficulty? Or hard stuff?
Quote from: mariolegofan on April 13, 2015, 02:50:18 PMIf you need some beginner sheets, I know of a bunch and tell you them if you want :)
This. This is the answer. If anyone actually specifically wants easy stuff, let them ask in the forums themselves. It's happened before and is the best way to handle this.
Quote from: JDMEK5 on April 24, 2015, 12:12:57 PMBut then what about those people who want medium difficulty? Or hard stuff?
This. This is the answer. If anyone actually specifically wants easy stuff, let them ask in the forums themselves. It's happened before and is the best way to handle this.
If I had some support I'd categorize some (or all) of the site sheets into levels. The. I could post that in the forums.
I don't need any help but support or anyone interested in this would be great!
Quote from: mariolegofan on April 24, 2015, 02:12:09 PMIf I had some support I'd categorize some (or all) of the site sheets into levels. The. I could post that in the forums.
I don't need any help but support or anyone interested in this would be great!
(https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1147.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo555%2FJDMEK5%2FFacepalm.jpg&hash=27de11f037bd2498a2a6808f5069c9be1216ab82)
Point #1: Let's say that I don't think enough people need difficulty settings to make it worth your while
Point #2:
Quote from: SlowPokemon on April 12, 2015, 06:51:47 PMWhy do we even need a scale that will only be relative in the end anyway. Literally looking at the sheet will be enough to tell the pianist if it's their skill level or not.
^This. This this this this this. It's all relevant to one's ability and therefore a system like this is a practical impossibility.
Quote from: JDMEK5 on April 24, 2015, 12:12:57 PMThis. This is the answer. If anyone actually specifically wants easy stuff, let them ask in the forums themselves. It's happened before and is the best way to handle this.
This. This so much.
Quote from: JDMEK5 on April 24, 2015, 02:29:10 PMPoint #1: Let's say that I don't think enough people need difficulty settings to make it worth your while
I mean.......that I could just rate some of the songs on the site and post it in the forums somewhere.
But whatever :p
This thread is hanging on by a thread.
Quote from: Olimar12345 on April 24, 2015, 09:12:15 PMThis thread is hanging on by a thread.
The pun is real.
why this
you know why
Why is Pollyana (Earthbound series) rated max difficulty?
That means it's popular not difficult
THIS MAKES SO MUCH MORE SENSE OMG
I'M GOING TO DELETE BOTH THESE POSTS TO SAVE FACE
Don't delete it, let the discussion stay archived or something XD
(I didn't read any other thing in this post)
I think that a good difficulty system would be to put three different difficulties: Beginner, Intermediate, and Advanced. People who make arrangements might see a song that is too easy in their opinion, instead of making a replacement to make it harder, they would just make a harder arrangement and we would keep both. Easy songs could possibly be made harder, but harder songs might stay a hard song. Keep in mind this is just what I think you should do, but it might not work that well...
Quote from: cashwarrior1 on May 10, 2015, 05:35:46 PM(I didn't read any other thing in this post)
(not to be rude, but you probably should)
No. The majority of songs that need a different replacement are so terrible they should not stay on the site. And this would kind of go against the site's motive for having a definitive sheet for each song, rather than two. (Although there are some exceptions)
I mean, I'm not against having multiple sheets of differing difficulty for the same piece, but that doesn't mean we need to implement a rating system for it. If there are two sheets that accurately depict the original while maintaining different levels of difficulty then I'd think that should be fine.
We had a thing like this sorta with Maestro's virtuoso arrangements. It's possible.
Do you mean something like what this guy (https://www.youtube.com/user/DMBN/videos) does?
Just watch his arrangements here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAqLxch545h9V2y4M0uO1Bw
Oh, I thought the other guy (cashwarrior) was talking about making an easier arrangement for harder pieces. My bad.