1. Bird – Standard Bird game. The only thing I think you should have done was shoot Funnygurl to null the Brutal Wolf.
2. Bubbles – Thanks for replacing in! You did a great job jumping into the game like you did, and your posts in the thread asked relevant questions and important content. I really liked that you thought the lynch through on Day 2 instead of just straight lynching Funnygurl555; that you beat people like Sauce and Liggy to reasoning that Funnygurl555 could be Brutal is impressive. Not sure why Sauce didn't end up shooting her after all. Your only mistake was on the last Day Phase; you forgot to take into account the Traitor! Nevertheless, I was quite proud how you rationalised that NocturneOfShadow likely wasn't a Wolf from maelstrom's blunder. And that you stuck to davy was great too; if everyone were thinking like you, Humans would definitely have won! Sauce and Liggy were suspicious of you for some reason, but if I were playing, I would probably have thought you were really Human! Honourable Mention
3. Maelstrom – To be honest, your PM response and inactivity late Day 3 is what cost the game for the Humans! I don't know if you were busy or anything, but you definitely should not have responded the way you did.
4. Olimar12345 – You got a bit unlucky in your play Day 1 and were lynched. Day 1 lynches of Wolves is mostly luck anyway, so don't feel down about it!
5. BlackDragonSlayer – Should have trusted Liggy's opinion!!! As a word of advice, don't vote when the threat of a Wolf Rush is present.
6. Vermilionvermin – rip
7. fank009 – looooooool at predicting the remaining two Wolves Night 2. That being said, I felt your Role as Traitor seemed a bit bland. You could have stirred things up with a false claim or something! Not that it mattered too much, since davy seering you essentially gave the Wolves a much needed vote that won the game. Good job!
8. Funnygurl555 – And thank you too for replacing in! I felt that false claiming was a really bad idea, especially having done it so late. Given the setup chosen, it was practically suicide; Humans would figure out the Bulletproof's identity sooner or later. The false claim would have been good had Olimar12345 not died, but it wasn't worth the unnecessary risk otherwise. Had you stayed quiet and expressed being okay with the Olimar12345
9. Dude – Sorry that you died! You saved Liggy from the Brutal though!!!
10. Davy - You were basically the mastermind of the Wolf Team. You made very astute seering choices (such that you only needed to use your power twice) and having found the Traitor early on is essentially what one you the game. The only mistakes I would say you made were choosing for Funnygurl to false claim Seer and wolfing Bird, and having your activity plummet as your Partners died.
11. NocturneofShadow – Your plan of false claiming Traitor to maelstrom was a good one. It's a shame it backfired though. Otherwise, not too bad of a performance!
12. Liggy – Claiming Night 1 was a good strategy, considering it allowed you to unite the Specials in the game (see: Bird). I probably would have done it later than sooner though, but it worked for you, so...! It was rather amusing that you were doubting Bird over Funnygurl555 on Night 2. If I were in your shoes, I would have thought the opposite; Bird wouldn't make an obviously weak false claim and (to my knowledge) Funnygurl555's claim was rather late in the Phase. That being said, pretty standard Liggy game! You were able to nail davy in the end and, had you not been wolfed, would have definitely won the game for the Humans. MVP
Game Action Log:
Twilight –
Wolves choose Options 5, 6, and 9.
Night 1 –
vermilionvermin is wolfed (Human)
davy seers Bird Blue.
Day 1 –
Olimar12345 is lynched (Wolf).
Night 2 –
Bird is attacked, but survives.
Davy seers fank009 Orange.
Day 2 –
Funnygurl555 is Insta'd (Brutal Wolf), Dude is brutalled (Human).
Night 3 –
Bird is wolfed (One-shot Bulletproof with a Gun).
Day 3 –
maelstrom is lynched (Invisible Charismatic Human).
Night 4 –
Liggy is wolfed (Mason).
Day 5 –
NocturneofShadow is Insta'd (Human).
Wolves:
Some good decisions were made and some bad decisions were made, in my opinion. The setup choice was a safe one and there was nothing wrong with that. Olimar12345 being lynched Day 1 was avoidable, but partially due to bad luck as well. Funnygurl's death, however, could definitely have been avoided. Having her false claim Seer was risky and was more harm than help, in my opinion. That you decided to wolf Bird after seering him Blue was even more bizarre; he was either the Invisible Charismatic (in which case, you would only need to be careful with votes) or a Bulletproof that would not only block a wolfing, but confirm himself as Human! Neither of those possibilities were worthwhile at all, you were better off taking the safe route, especially since Liggy actually doubted Sauce a bit (though, I suppose you didn't know that anyhow)! Admittedly, your victory was partially maelstrom's fault (for his PM business) and mine (for not being present on time for the Insta; though, Humans could easily have switched their votes after voting maelstrom, so meh). I would say performance was more or less average.
Humans:
To be honest, I think the Human Team did a rather mediocre job beyond Bird, Liggy, and Bubbles. Not that everyone else played badly, but I didn't see as much in comparison to those three. I was disappointed that Wills weren't used to their potential. And when someone actually did use a Will for an important purpose (see: Liggy), it apparently didn't matter! An average performance overall.
Game Overall:
Unfortunately, the game was fairly Wolf-sided. And it's largely my fault for neglecting to advocate my opinion about the Traitor when Bird was helping me balance, so I apologise for that. Coincidentally, just a few days ago, I actually found a MafiaScum game with the exact same premise as this one (except it was actually balanced!!!), which I'll definitely have to look at and potentially host if we ever want to have another game like this in the future.
do i still get bonus points
Also, sorry for having to be replaced. School camp came and I was unable to post things. Apparently I didn't even need to though!!!
praise?? from a twg game?? ilu mashi
Honestly I'm just happy that I wasn't almost lynched from the "inactivity = wolf" argument that comes up every game
WOLVESSSS why did you try to wolf birrrrdddddddddddd
Oh well we still won somehow d:
Really mashi??? Nothing from me? just... flat?
I clearly played the best Human AND wolf game here... (granted two wrongs don't make it right for my role), Yes I could have claimed... though wolves did need me in the end. If I did do something like that, I would have just wasted myself, and there would have been no reason for noct to put in some fancy play syndrome.
Quote from: Bubbles on August 13, 2014, 10:08:27 PMHonestly I'm just happy that I wasn't almost lynched from the "inactivity = wolf" argument that comes up every game
weren't you thinking about lynching davy on the same principle? *cough*
As stated before, wolves did win by providence really, Noct, sometimes Fancy play syndrome is needed, sometimes its not, you just have to time it well, and it was probably the worst for humans, and did ultimately cost them the game. (mind you, everyone else alive, ok, the most important person alive bit into it as well... so it's his fault ;D)
Im prolly going to appear to be gluttonus for a few moments, but I honestly do believe that my human play and wolf play was the best in the game, the catch being was that I was neither, that I was a traitor, and although both helped me, they really didnt do anything to help me win. I can be at the bottom of everyones list, but it doesnt matter if the wolf team are at the top and get lynched. There is only so much I can do, and you can bet, that a lot of the stupid mistakes wolves did, wouldnt happen if I were in the mix. (of course, all the stupid ideas were davy's) And lets mention the fact, that - olimar, who I really didnt have a lean on... (wanted him to live, can see the wolf tendancies and didn't vote for him, mainly for the fact that I was traitor... didnt have him pinned though) I pinned the other wolves quite nicely, and would have been wrecked if I was really a human (granted davy was a POE, with everyone else telling good human thoughts)
Granted, I didnt play the PERFRECT game, (if people caught on, they would have noticed a common scum trait that I have...) though it only showed the strength that I have on both sides, scum hunting AND playing devils advocate and "gaining trust"
I do have to give credit where credit is due, and Liggy played a good game, and with a really good case against davy that WASNT "inactive=wolves". Bird was a good leader, Mael had a Good game, (- talking to noct) and humans should have won. except the good lady had other plans involved. Liggy IS gonna be so mad... heck, it was either him or me xD
Now, The wilves,
olimar, as liggy stated you were too easy to read and hug gave a little bit of too much info at a time, granted fmpov your big defence post screamed wolf fmpov and would have been nailed if I were a human, otherwise, a pretty average scrappy play.
FG- I stated at the beginning I was intimidated by you, I sensed something in your presence that you knew how to play... (some people call it my "BS sense") one wolf stratergy is to just post pointless filler, and I caught on that early, and tried to communicate very discreetly, of the 3, you definetly were the most cheated, and im sure a team of me/you would have had a lot better chance of not relying on a miracle than me/davy (no offence). you played decent, it was a shame you were thrown under the bus early on.
Davy- Do I really need to say anything? (are you still hating on me for "that game" (guessing from that stab earlier, "yep"))
all in all, liggys a decent scum hunter, bird's a good leader, Davy has terrible wolf plans, BDS is still BDS, and fank is a threat no matter what team he's on.
Quote from: fank009 on August 13, 2014, 11:16:33 PMweren't you thinking about lynching davy on the same principle? *cough*
I'm not saying that the reasoning is always completely wrong, but that I am always pinned down for it in
every game
The strategy of going completely inactive was something I wanted to try out this game. I've never done it before as a wolf, while I have been sort of inactive as a normal human. I think that if more players had been suspicious of me on that last day phase, I would've defended myself pretty well.
About FG claiming, FG needed to get lynched before I died. By letting her fake-claim, chances of her being lynched rose (and she did got lynched in the end, so in fact, that strategy succeded). After having seered bird blue, I knew he was either the bulletproof, or the charismatic. Now that the humans knew there was a charismatic, I wanted to get rid of him ASAP, so that he wouldn't screw up further lynches. If he was the Bulletproof, it would get FG lycnhed, it would allow me to get rid of him the next night phase (otherwise, I'd had to be scared of the gun the entire game), and he had a chance to shoot a human overnight, allowing me to obtain victory a phase earlier.
I understeand that I don't deserve credits for how I played this game, but I did win the game for the wolves, and that hadn't happened since TWG L. And you know what? That game went in a similar way, with a pretty luck-based lynch on a wolf day one, and a fake-claim strategy leading to the death of another one. Ugly victories are still victories, and I'm currently just glad I won this game for a change.
Now for the game structure...
This game should give potential host a good idea of how (not) to ballance a game. First of, this game didn't had a guardian, so all of the specials could be wolf'd immidiately after they claim. Seccondly, this game didn't have a seer/psychic or any other fact-finder on the human team. If they had, they would have seered me and the game would have been over by day 3. Thirdly, a shaman can drastically change how a wolf team plays, allowing the team to find blues early and to find the traitor, and while on the subject of the traitor, I think giving him seering powers would also change his play (especially if there would've been no sham) since he can actively go hunt for wolves. Finally, allowing humans only one mislynch will make the game pretty difficult for the humans.
That's all for now. I'm going to take a break from TWG to get accustomed to living on my own. See you guys.
Quote from: fank009 on August 13, 2014, 11:16:33 PMBDS is still BDS
:P
Had the Nocturne/Maelstrom incident not occurred (or if Mael had mentioned it in his will), I would not have voted for Nocturne; given the circumstances, he looked extremely suspicious.
The only really unfair Option was 9, everything else was fine (albeit a bit stale).
Having a Guardian would make the game an alliance game. There's a reason I opted for Wizard over Guardian.
Humans don't always need a Seer/Psychic to find the Wolves. Sauce, Liggy, and Bubbles sure didn't!
Shaman gave Humans two Masons to even things out.
I considered giving Traitor a seer power, but opted not to, since I struggled balancing it. In the end, Option 9 was really what tipped the scales; it gave the Wolves an extra vote. Added with the Brutal and the death of the Charismatic is part of why Humans were only able to afford one mislynch. I'll have to think of something better than a Charismatic for the Humans if I ever want to host something like this again.
I never thought going to bed early would cost the game. :P Now, I'm not sure why I replied to NoS's PM without PM'ing a comfirmed human about it first. And I can't believe I forgot to update my will after NoS's plan. ugh...
Quote from: maelstrom. on August 14, 2014, 06:24:34 AMI never thought going to bed early would cost the game. :P Now, I'm not sure why I replied to NoS's PM without PM'ing a comfirmed human about it first. And I can't believe I forgot to update my will after NoS's plan. ugh...
Going to bed before and EOD got my killed by the serial killer in one of the games I was in
... #salt
But yay GG everyone woofs rule you all suck yaaaaaaaaaaa 8)
Quote from: Bird on August 09, 2014, 11:10:50 PMWhoops!
lol.
I would have killed bubbles anyway.
I haven't forgotten to use my night power in a very long time, but at least it didn't matter.
Pretty surprised Nocturne and maelstrom were lynched though. They were pretty much confirmed humans in my eyes. I likely would have pushed for a Davy lynch after Bubbles had been killed off. Oh well.
Good game.
Quote from: davy on August 14, 2014, 12:59:56 AMand a fake-claim strategy leading to the death of another one.
The irony of that was that a considerable amount of the votes against me were literraly "FSM's too cool to be lynched let's lynch Yugi instead".
And me getting lynched helped the wolves, as it allowed FSM to start his revive shenanigans!
Quote from: Mashi on August 14, 2014, 01:44:02 AMThe only really unfair Option was 9, everything else was fine (albeit a bit stale).
Having a Guardian would make the game an alliance game. There's a reason I opted for Wizard over Guardian.
Humans don't always need a Seer/Psychic to find the Wolves. Sauce, Liggy, and Bubbles sure didn't!
Shaman gave Humans two Masons to even things out.
I considered giving Traitor a seer power, but opted not to, since I struggled balancing it. In the end, Option 9 was really what tipped the scales; it gave the Wolves an extra vote. Added with the Brutal and the death of the Charismatic is part of why Humans were only able to afford one mislynch. I'll have to think of something better than a Charismatic for the Humans if I ever want to host something like this again.
I didn't mean it like that...!
Your combinations were really fine, it's just that since you allowed the wolves to create the game, they could make it unballanced.
I understeand that you didn't want an alliance game, but by opting to neighter give the humans a (semi-)guardian (wizard), nor any special that was really good on his own (Bulletproof was preselected, so it doesn't count) can force the game into a manhunt, but with more wolves AND with wolves that actually have powers.
No, games don't always need a fact finder. But it would have been the final nail in my coffin which would have this game end up in human favor. I was a bit hasty with my earlier post though, because you did give the humans a fact finder: cardflips.
I repeat, your combinations were (almost) completely ballanced; the combination of combinations that were chosen by the wolves was what this game made unballanced. I'd like to see a similar game exept that one combination is chosen randomly, one by the wolves and one by the humans.
Most importantly of all, my post wasn't meant to say the game was unballanced; it's just that this game is a great example to how to make a game more ballanced in wolf favor if you expect wolves to play poorly and expect the humans to play good (which was the case this game) and the lack of certain specials shows how to make a game more ballanced if you expect it the other way around.
Ah, okay, my mistake, davy. I agree, I tried making the setups as balanced as possible in conjunction with one another, but I think Option 9 is what primarily put a wrench in things. I like your idea of having Wolves and Humans choosing an option each and randomising another; it would certainly lead to some interesting setups!
Cool game! I wouldn't be too hard on yourself, Mashi. It might have been unbalanced, but the humans still should have won. Nocturne over davy was interesting, to say the least.
Maybe an El Presidente-style game theory pre-game setup would be a fun next step?
Will try to get in a game here soon. My schedule is crazy.
I think the game was fine besides option 9. When I looked over the game with Mashi, I didn't realize that the ninth option both added a wolf-aligned player and subtracted a human player. At the time, I somehow thought that it would turn one of the wolves into a traitor, so I suggested adding millers to make it better. Bad communication between Mashi and I prevented this problem from coming to light until the game started.
I had originally made that post about option 9 being an obvious pick while thinking option nine was actually terrible. Only when people began to agree with me did I look at it again.
Humans don't need a factfinding role or an alliance in a game with perfectly accurate cardflips. The only thing Mashi needed to look at when balancing this game was "how balanced is this game when the wolves select the best combination of options?" Because if the game is balanced when they pick well, it's a balanced game, and if they pick badly, it's their fault. And I think pretty much any combination gave the humans more than a fighting chance. We just lynched badly and I wasted my power.
Quote from: Bird on August 15, 2014, 07:17:06 AMHumans don't need a factfinding role or an alliance in a game with perfectly accurate cardflips. The only thing Mashi needed to look at when balancing this game was "how balanced is this game when the wolves select the best combination of options?" Because if the game is balanced when they pick well, it's a balanced game, and if they pick badly, it's their fault. And I think pretty much any combination gave the humans more than a fighting chance. We just lynched badly and I wasted my power.
While that may be true, I don't think it's necessarily the best way to go about it. Ideally, there shouldn't be an objectively "best" choice for the wolves to pick, and the wolves should be able to create a viable and balance setup choice unique to their playstyle!
I'd actually love to see this idea reused in another game sometime. It has a lot of promise!