Some of you might remember the old Abandoned Arrangements thread (http://forum.ninsheetm.us/index.php?topic=4781.0). That one died down, but I think the idea still is relevant.
Basically, the problem is that some arrangers create arrangements - good arrangements at that - at a faster rate than the site uploads. This typically leads to threads full of finished arrangements, that rarely are submitted or uploaded to the site (fun fact - The first arrangement Dahans made for NSM still isn't uploaded). Then, for one reason or another, these arrangers begin visiting NSM less frequently, they don't arrange as much any more and don't visit the submission threads - yet their arrangement threads are still full of ready-to-be-submitted sheets. Finished sheets even, readily approved and ready to be uploaded, if anybody just got around to do so.
After a while, file hosting sites will delete files from accounts that are unused. This phenomenom is known as "link rot", and it eventually leads to threads full of dead links, possibly linking to that one song you've requested time and time again. Once again I'll use GreekGeek's submission thread (http://forum.ninsheetm.us/index.php?topic=1208.msg21138#msg21138) as an example. Loads of good songs not on site, many of them just a quick touch-up away from being upload-worthy, but many of the links are dead and the rest won't remain for long.
I think there is lot of unused potential lying around NSM's abandoned arrangement threads. Many sheets of varying degree of progress and quality, but some are good and some excellent, and it would be a waste letting them all go to oblivion. This thread, this project, tries to do something about it. Namely, collect and backup sheets from forgotten arrangement threads, with the goal of preserving the effort that went into creating them, and - if we get the consent of the arranger - maybe finally get them on site one day, or pass them on to people who can finish the job started long ago.
The previous Abandoned Arrangements thread uncovered one important fact:
We can't simply submit sheets without people's permission. Unless the arranger has specifically given consent, we wouldn't be legally allowed to put the sheets on site (and while we're in a legal gray zone as it is, the people we'd be offending would be our own comrades - people who've dedicated time and effort to help NSM - it would be immoral of us to upload their work behind their backs). However, I think we're free to catalogize and backup the files here on the forums.
So at first, the project would concentrate on mapping the extent of the problem. Finding sheets with active links from old submission threads, making backups if necessary (I downloaded all I could find in GreekGeek's thread), gathering them in one place and maybe trying to get in touch with the arrangers.
I think some discussion could also be in order before we get started, to really find out and agree on what to do. Here are some proposed points of discussion:
- What counts as "consent" of the arranger? Would files under the header "sheets for submission" count as a permission to upload? Personally, I think we should differ between sheets only needing formatting work, and sheets needing larger corrections. The former would be okay to polish and submit under the widest definition of permission, while the latter would require approval from the original arranger.
- What constitutes an abandoned thread? Should we start at threads that haven't seen activity in six months? One year? Two years?
Never? - How much are we allowed to do without the consent of the arranger? Would simply the gathering of links, or re-hosting them entirely, count as piracy? Some might object to the idea of their old, embarrassing work being dragged out of their dying thread and put in a .zip-file in an active thread for all of NSM to see.
- Any other viewpoints?
Also, coincidentally, the only arranger to actively permit the old project to use his files was Bespinben, who left for Mormonism almost to the day two years ago. If he keeps his old promises, he'll be back next week, probably a little disappointed that the project went nowhere. Let's hope we can get something started for real this time, overcoming the obstacle of "unintended piracy".
Any thoughts or ideas?
Technically, you could say simply posting them on the forums gives rights to everyone, as long as the original composer and arranger are credited. If you don't want some of your sheets popping up again, just don't post them on the forum. It's that simple. And most of the older arrangers haven't been here in years, so it's very unlikely that they will just pop in to give their approval.
I don't know if it's as simple as that. For example, I have hundreds of sheets collected from all sorts of places including here but I'm not just going to post them all, well at least the ones I got from here anyway. I'll probably have to think about this some more before I give a more useful response.
I say the most we can do is gather them all up an host them on the forums. There are plenty of arrangers who post stuff and don't submit them and we shouldn't host them without their consent.
That being said, there would still be a sort of "loop-hole" for this regarding the older arrangements. Way back when, we used to use the personal arrangement threads for submissions. The updaters would go around thread to thread, give feedback, and accept them there. I think the arrangements from this era are free game, as the consent was given just by posting them. We would just have to pinpoint the time when we switched over to using submission topics and gather the arrangers from before then.
I like this idea and I feel like it's something that probably has to get done, cause like you said with the "link rotting"
^3
Hm, yeah. I wouldn't use the word "legality" in our discussions here. We essentially are a non-commercial website hosted in US, ran by a Finnish guy and storing piano arrangements of copyrighted video game music arranged voluntarily by different people. I don't really want to go down that rabbit hole to figure out our exact legal status, although I probably should, considering I'm most likely the one responsible here.
Anyway, back to the issue. We'd rather need to consider what is fair here. Cobra summed up the moral aspects of this rather well, so I don't know why I am still talking. I was planning on posting something meaningful but couldn't really articulate it here. I'll try again later.
This is more of an observation than anything else.
It seems that lost sheets are forever going to be a downfall of the video game sheet music community. So many good websites have come and gone and taken their sheets along with them. The most recent example is VgVirtuoso, which while relatively small, still had quite a number of great sheets. Another one that comes to mind is the GMA forum which disappeared earlier on this year. I don't know if anyone remembers it, but it was once a great place to discuss sheets and learn about arranging and there were quite a number of good sheets in the members only section too (pskim's retro Mario transcriptions were particularly amazing). I can think of some others too (The Pianocian, Shivasar etc). It seems it has always been an issue...
I think that if the arrangers didn't submit their arrangements to the site is because they didn't want to. They have had the chance after all, they simply chose not to submit.
Honestly, I wouldn't touch those arrangements at all.
^On the contrary, I think it was the sporadicity of the updates, and the requirement of arrangers to post their sheets in threads that showed up once in a blue moon and stayed open for two days, that caused many arrangers to simply not bother to. Historically, the process of submission was too strenous for people to bother with unless they spent loads of time on here, so many arrangement threads experienced a pile-up of sheets that never was submitted. They would have been submitted under conditions like the new ones, where submission is a continuously-running process, but when you could post two sheets every other month - if you happened to be logged on that day - they never were.
Finding sheets that have been explicitly posted in a submissions thread in the past, but were neglected to be looked over may be a possibility. Permission has been given to put them on the site. (Or at least the intention has been shown)
Well, actually I I just had an idea. At the very least, we could always save those arrangements from being irrecoverable, that is, going through all the abandoned threads and picking up those lost arrangements. Their links will expire sooner or later, so the earlier the better. In fact, I'm going to start now, let's see if I can find something interesting...ยด
Edit: Well... After going through 30+ old arrangement threads... It's just not worth it. All those arrangements need so much fixing it'd be better to do them all over again, not to mention the links of most of them are already kaput. From all those threads, I could only save 3 arrangements with luck, but they're midi as heck, so still nope ._.
Better leave them in oblivion...
ehh, shouldn't we remove this thread since it seems somewhat abandoned as explained in Don's last post, so it doesn't remain a sticky?
No.
Because I'm revising my arrangements so they can be submitted while I'm gone.
A list will be posted later.
Because I'm on my phone, and don't feel like typing the entire list, here are the songs that need special mentioning:
Undersea Palace: Needs a bit of work, mostly articulations and condensing.
Serpent Devouring the Horizon: I must approve all major changes.
These may need more revisions than the others:
Tragic Decision
I'll add more later if I feel the need to.
Everything else can be submitted and all major changes do not need to be approved by me.
In the event that I leave the forum or like inexplicably die I'd like all the arrangements in my thread to eventually go up on site, I don't mind any changes tho
Quote from: Maelstrom on August 30, 2015, 05:17:21 AMNo.
Because I'm revising my arrangements so they can be submitted while I'm gone.
A list will be posted later.
This isn't a place for that however... This is for abandoned threads, you will return right? xD
Anyways, in case someone leaves but wants their arrangements on site, they could create a topic in Help or something before they do...
So yeah, I agree with tobbeh, this project in particular is going nowhere, dead end, finito, bye bye, ciao, arrivederci.
Quote from: Altissimo on September 13, 2015, 12:10:21 PMIn the event that I leave the forum or like inexplicably die I'd like all the arrangements in my thread to eventually go up on site, I don't mind any changes tho
Quote from: Altissimo on September 13, 2015, 12:10:21 PMIn the event that I leave the forum or like inexplicably die I'd like all the arrangements in my thread to eventually go up on site, I don't mind any changes tho
Arr think I dunno how to read, eh mateys? I said this project
in particular, that is:
Quote from: Cobraroll on October 16, 2014, 01:55:36 PMI think there is lot of unused potential lying around NSM's abandoned arrangement threads.
We're talking about recovering arrangements from
currently abandoned threads.
Current.
Thing is, there is
zero potential:
Quote from: DonValentino on July 05, 2015, 01:22:47 PMEdit: Well... After going through 30+ old arrangement threads... It's just not worth it. All those arrangements need so much fixing it'd be better to do them all over again, not to mention the links of most of them are already kaput. From all those threads, I could only save 3 arrangements with luck, but they're midi as heck, so still nope ._.
That's why tobbeh pointed out that this should be archived, and I agreed with him.
Of course another topic...
Quote from: DonValentino on September 13, 2015, 12:46:14 PMThis isn't a place for that however... (...) could create a topic in Help or something (...)
...for future abandoned arrangements can be specifically created for arrangers who want to see their work on site... But, again...
(https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.lvme.me%2Fmdus4ch.jpg&hash=7f77cbd93538a3c0ead24d9bde82efbb71bd49d5)
I just got a little internet and thought I'd add something: I discussed this with Latios, as he will be submitting these for me, but didn't have a better idea of a public place to put the list. If you want to move it somewhere, go ahead.
I was reading this, and I thought I might as well post. Should the case ever arise that I become inactive on here (and I pray that never happens), I give full consent to any mod/updater, The Mario Pianist, Sebastian, and/or F. L. U. D. D. (I know him irl) to submit my sheets. Also, if changes need to be made to them, then I give consent to change that as well. But that is only if I become inactive for a period of time lasting longer than 2-3 months.
Archiving this for now. Cobra, hmu if you want this revived, but it seems dead now.