Submission Information:
Series: Super Mario
Game: Super Mario 3D World
Console: Wii U
Title: Super Bell Hill
Instrumentation Solo Piano
Arranger: TheMarioPianist (http://forum.ninsheetmusic.org/index.php?action=profile;u=4625)
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Here's the video for the actual song. Also, my .mus file doesn't have any swing because my version doesn't support it. Any help there, please?
Looks like we already have a submission of a Super Bell Hill :P
http://forum.ninsheetmusic.org/index.php?topic=6846.0
Yea, I knew there was a submission. I didn't know if there was a rule against submitting the same song if the first one hadn't been accepted yet. I kinda threw this together before looking at the forums. I saw that someone else had done it, but figured I'd do it anyway. If I am not supposed to duplicate, I apologize.
Well, the best one is the only one that gets on the site. That's just how it goes. If a sheet on the site stinks, and you make a better version, go right ahead and submit it.
If I'm going to be 100% honest here, this is a heck of a lot better than my arrangement. My one criticism would be about the second voice in the right hand. I chose not to use it in my arrangement because I didn't think it could "fit" anywhere, and I see this a little in your arrangement. Specifically measures 5, which has the second voice near the top of the staff, and the main melody towards the bottom. Similar predicaments crop up between measures 5 and 18. I don't see how it could be reasonably played with one hand. I'd also say a little stem flipping is necessary throughout the piece.
But seriously though, this one blows my original out of the water. Kudos ;)
After looking at it, I'd like to raise some concerns about playability. I really think those high 3rds are just too high to be practical in any way, shape, or form. It would just feel unnatural to play. I'd recommend printing it out and trying it for yourself to see what I mean.
And, when in Finale, use L to flip stems. You may need to press it twice. It's kind of weird.
As Maelstrom said the playability of the second layer is questionable. However one thing I noticed is that you can just switch octaves on the first and the second layer, so the melody becomes high and the chords becomes low, and maybe change some 6ths into 3rds. I'm not 100% of this and how to do with the second part, but this might be a good solution.
Yea, I don't actually know why I wrote the thirds in. Basically I thought that the main melody sounded a little bland because there aren't really any chords. I just didn't know if I'd get in trouble by throwing a few chords in the right hand and straying from the original a little bit.
Oh yea, and critique me on tempo if you want. I know @Yug_Guy had 112 (I think) on his, but based on how I wrote it mine needs to be approximately double. So if I need to bump it up a bit let me know.
OK, took almost all of the thirds out (except for 2 measures where they are filling blank spaces and are playable). Also, I put some chords in the right hand to strengthen the melody a bit. Let me know what you think :)
It looks pretty good!
A few things:
--Fiddle around with the text at the top. Try to make it look like some of the other submissions. (e.g. correctly aligned text, etc.)
--It's not a problem on the .mus, but the second line of composers is missing on the PDF
--A simple repeat would suffice at the end instead of a DS.
Most of the other stuff is simply aesthetic.
--All those dotted quarter dotted quarters are improper note beaming. To show the beat properly, you should write it as dotted quarter, 8th tied to a quarter for all of them.
--The note stems are better, but still a problem.
--Try to avoid playing the same note in both layers, even if it's part of the harmony. It will make the sheet look much, much cleaner.
--Some of those tie lines are just plain weird. I'm not sure how to fix them.
--Again, try to condense the layers wherever possible. For example, in m4, that quarter chord could be entirely inserted into the 2nd layer to clean things up a little.
--M34+35 are another good example of both of the things I'm talking about. In 34, you could just use one layer. That dotted half could be removed and the quarter added in to the other layer as an eighth. In 35, that redundancy is completely unnecessary. It's up to you how to approach it. Will you remove the dotted eighth and leave the other layer (and hide the first rest)? Or will you remove the whole note and leave it as is (with the corrected note beaming)?
Quote from: cqk328 on June 30, 2015, 06:13:22 AMYea, I don't actually know why I wrote the thirds in. Basically I thought that the main melody sounded a little bland because there aren't really any chords. I just didn't know if I'd get in trouble by throwing a few chords in the right hand and straying from the original a little bit.
Sometimes when transcribing it doesn't always sound the best, even if you copy it exactly. Some things just don't work out.
Quote from: cqk328 on June 30, 2015, 06:30:16 AMOh yea, and critique me on tempo if you want. I know @Yug_Guy had 112 (I think) on his, but based on how I wrote it mine needs to be approximately double. So if I need to bump it up a bit let me know.
I had gotten critiques that I needed to double my tempo. The tempo you've got is just fine.
Quote from: cqk328 on June 30, 2015, 07:46:31 AMOK, took almost all of the thirds out (except for 2 measures where they are filling blank spaces and are playable). Also, I put some chords in the right hand to strengthen the melody a bit. Let me know what you think :)
Definitely looks a lot better. The chords are a nice touch. :)
I'll make those changes ASAP...Not at home right now, but I know what you are talking about as in proper note beamings, redundancies, etc. On properly aligning text, is there a way to properly center text in Finale? Also, can you do the same on MuseScore? I have to convert to xml between the two and it jumbles up text all the time.
Ok, changes were made. If the note stems are still an issue, could you tell me where specifically (assuming its not a majority of them)? Same with the ties. I fixed a few, but if I missed any let me know. Lastly, if my text isn't aligned, could you tell me how to do so in Notepad and MuseScore? Would be appreciated :D
You definitely got most, if not all of them. Yet, this brought up another problem. Unnecessary rests. I tried and you can't fix it in notepad, so you'll need to have someone with a higher version of finale touch it up. All they need to do is hide the rests that are getting in the way.
The text isn't actually that bad, looking at it again. I still recommend moving the arranger text up closer to the composer text (just use the text tool -- The big A)
Two final things:
First, you will need to reenter quite a few of those notes to realign them properly. (like m19 and m35)
Second, the notes really shouldn't be colliding with the dynamics. If you find yourself having trouble moving the dynamics/adjusting the stems, remember that sometimes a simple cresc. or dim. text will do the same job. (just make sure it's italicized)
Also, try to remember to update your .mus file often. It's usually what people check to give you feedback instead of the PDFs and midis.
'
edit: and some 8vb's wouldn't hurt either to ease up on those ledger lines.
Quote from: Maelstrom on June 30, 2015, 12:22:05 PMUnnecessary rests. I tried and you can't fix it in notepad, so you'll need to have someone with a higher version of finale touch it up. All they need to do is hide the rests that are getting in the way.
Usually you can't erase any rests from the first voice, but you can usually do it from the second voice onward. I know that's how it works in Musescore, and I believe I've been able to do it in Notepad as well.
Ok, updated them again. I made the rests invisible in Musescore and I think they remained that way in Finale. I know I could just update the .mus, but my occasional OCD makes me update all 3 :D. Anyway, if I missed anything, let me know.
Quote from: Yug_Guy on June 30, 2015, 01:33:54 PMUsually you can't erase any rests from the first voice, but you can usually do it from the second voice onward. I know that's how it works in Musescore, and I believe I've been able to do it in Notepad as well.
I don't think you can do it inf Notepad at all.
You can hide rests in the main voice in finale, btw.
Otherwise, the arrangement looks pretty good. I'd wait until an updater comes by though. They're sure to see something I missed.
Just a question since I'm new here. If I come off sounding impatient, I apologize in advance. Just so I know, how long does it generally take for an updater to come through? Once again, my apologies if I'm sounding impatient.
Could range from a few days to a few months.
I do love this song ^^ I know this song has been sitting here for a while (not just your sheet) and actually I was just talking to Bespinben yesterday about this one. The updater train will (hopefully) arrive soon!
Ok, that's what I figured. Just wanted to know mainly for future reference if one of my arrangements (or even this one) bombs, so that I would know when to move on. And since its in my head, one final question, although it might not fit here. Of course, I have seen a medley of one game's worth of songs on the main site (Super Mario 64), but my question is this. If I have a medley spanning multiple games, does that belong in this submission forum or in the personal arrangements area? To be more specific, I have a medley of all of the "Rainbow Road" themes from the console Mario Kart games (currently only written for steel drum, actually) that I was planning on writing a piano score for.
Idk if we still put melodies on the site. If you want an updater to see it, the best place to post would be here:
http://forum.ninsheetmusic.org/index.php?topic=2482.0
Wow, didn't realize that Yug Guy's was from February. This song really has been on here for awhile.
Quote from: cqk328 on July 06, 2015, 10:16:14 AMWow, didn't realize that Yug Guy's was from February. This song really has been on here for awhile.
Yeah. Both of my submissions have been on here for a while. I'd really just like to get them freed up so I can post new submissions. I got quite a few that can go on site.
You hear that updaters?! Well?!
Quote from: Yug_Guy on July 06, 2015, 12:14:26 PMYeah. Both of my submissions have been on here for a while. I'd really just like to get them freed up so I can post new submissions. I got quite a few that can go on site.
You hear that updaters?! Well?!
Yea, based on the newest update, it looks like they're putting off submissions until they finish up the projects they're working on. So hopefully the more recent submissions should be looked at and accepted before the end of the month. Assuming that the pages are not written in 2pt font :D
Just realized the extended intro (the first 2 measures) actually comes from the theme from Super Mario 3D World, which is a different song. This intro plays when playing Super Bell Hill but is omitted when playing in any other level that uses the theme. Should I keep the intro or get rid of it?
Last time I booted up this game to check, and yeah that intro only plays in Super Bell Hill, not even in the title screen. Can you find a reliable YouTube playlist? (Probably doesn't exist...)
Quote from: Latios212 on July 14, 2015, 02:19:44 PMLast time I booted up this game to check, and yeah that intro only plays in Super Bell Hill, not even in the title screen. Can you find a reliable YouTube playlist? (Probably doesn't exist...)
The playlist I have on the 3D World thread is good. Same as the one on vgmdb.net (the one Olimar gave me). "Super Bell Hill" does not play the intro, but the "Theme of Super Mario 3D World" does. However, that's a different song that has a key change and a definite ending. So I probably should get rid of the intro.
The updater train is here! It seems this sheet has gone through a few flip-flops between exact transcription and adaptive arranging. I didn't get to see the sheet in its first iteration, so I will simply judge it as it is currently.
As regular Me, I love it -- good harmonies especially for the RH. However, as Updater Me, when there IS a way to incorporate the independent voices, ideally this route should be taken as far as NinSheetMusic transcriptions are concerned. There are a few exceptions (SlowPokemon's "Prologue" submission from Ace Attorney being one them), but this is the standard. Allow me to demonstrate a version of the song (m. 4-7), that incorporates all the voices:
(https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1111.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh475%2FBespinben%2Fsuperbell2_zpshbhfmmqe.jpg&hash=d8aa6a350f81ff2813bf3398c3aa2928728e8fac) (http://s1111.photobucket.com/user/Bespinben/media/superbell2_zpshbhfmmqe.jpg.html)
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/35209091/SM3DW%20-%20Super%20Bell%20Hill%20%28example%29.musx
Some inverting, octave transpositions, and choice omissions were necessary to make it at the very least physically playable, but it is what I believe a very faithful representation of the source material. Granted, I don't expect you to fit a 4-part ensemble into 2 hands EVERY TIME, but if there's a way to do it (within reason), why not?
-----------------
That's just one subject though. I would much rather address what you HAVE arranged, since the former subject is a rather touchy one as of late (again, c.f. Slow's "Prologue"). The only thing that truly stops me from hitting the Accept button right away (and I want to really bad because this is an especially good arrangement) is the lack of the fine details that make the song. I've noted below (from m. 1-2) several missing notes in red, and a rest in blue where it was formerly tied over.
(https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1111.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh475%2FBespinben%2Fsuperbell1_zpsodzafbwz.jpg&hash=b20a75b77fd69de2f98557ec8f9dc03a9c3f8536) (http://s1111.photobucket.com/user/Bespinben/media/superbell1_zpsodzafbwz.jpg.html)
Also some important chord strikes and walking bass lines (m. 3-4):
(https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1111.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh475%2FBespinben%2Fsuperbell3_zpslkmnzgwr.jpg&hash=8f0e3aed22032a0c1aa8041d8a979c8a67b97787) (http://s1111.photobucket.com/user/Bespinben/media/superbell3_zpslkmnzgwr.jpg.html)
-------------------------------------
You gave a .musx file to a Notepad user again, Bespinben.
Quote from: Maelstrom on July 15, 2015, 07:03:39 AMYou gave a .musx file to a Notepad user again, Bespinben.
Actually, a former Notepad user. I recently got Finale 2014, so it's all good.
This awesome song finally got feedback! With Finale 2014, you can make PDFs, midis, and mus with it by exporting and you don't need to download anything for pdf making.
Quote from: Bespinben on July 15, 2015, 12:41:50 AMThe updater train is here! It seems this sheet has gone through a few flip-flops between exact transcription and adaptive arranging. I didn't get to see the sheet in its first iteration, so I will simply judge it as it is currently.
As regular Me, I love it -- good harmonies especially for the RH. However, as Updater Me, when there IS a way to incorporate the independent voices, ideally this route should be taken as far as NinSheetMusic transcriptions are concerned. There are a few exceptions (SlowPokemon's "Prologue" submission from Ace Attorney being one them), but this is the standard. Allow me to demonstrate a version of the song (m. 4-7), that incorporates all the voices:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/35209091/SM3DW%20-%20Super%20Bell%20Hill%20%28example%29.musx
Some inverting, octave transpositions, and choice omissions were necessary to make it at the very least physically playable, but it is what I believe a very faithful representation of the source material. Granted, I don't expect you to fit a 4-part ensemble into 2 hands EVERY TIME, but if there's a way to do it (within reason), why not?
-----------------
That's just one subject though. I would much rather address what you HAVE arranged, since the former subject is a rather touchy one as of late (again, c.f. Slow's "Prologue"). The only thing that truly stops me from hitting the Accept button right away (and I want to really bad because this is an especially good arrangement) is the lack of the fine details that make the song. I've noted below (from m. 1-2) several missing notes in red, and a rest in blue where it was formerly tied over.
Also some important chord strikes and walking bass lines (m. 3-4):
-------------------------------------
Wow. that is definitely a much better way to incorporate all voices while still maintaining the playability. I understand exactly what you're saying; I just didn't think there was a way to put all 4 voices into 2 hands. However, My one problem is that I'm not hearing that guitar part. Can you show me where you heard that? I can definitely take care of the other 3 voices no problem.
Just a note: I don't recommend exporting pdf-files. I used to do it but I had some weird problem when using tuplets: that "3's" and "6's" would appear at the bottom of the pages.
So I strongly recommend printing+pdf-program for the pdf-files. But you can use export for mus and midi.
Ok, so I just wanted to make sure I'm on the same page. Is this (https://www.dropbox.com/s/vw1c6fs5l2lrrfr/Super%20Bell%20Hill%20revisions.musx?dl=0) basically what you were telling me to do? I'm gonna need someone's help with the guitar part Bespinben has in his example, because I can't hear that at all, for some reason.
Quote from: Tobbeh99 on July 15, 2015, 07:21:57 AMJust a note: I don't recommend exporting pdf-files. I used to do it but I had some weird problem when using tuplets: that "3's" and "6's" would appear at the bottom of the pages.
So I strongly recommend printing+pdf-program for the pdf-files. But you can use export for mus and midi.
Good to know. But I've been having a problem with MuseScore lately. Whenever I use the template from the "What should your sheet look like?" thread, I edit the copyright to say whatever it should. However, when I export as an xml and import into MuseScore, the text reverts back to what it says on the template. And I can't fix it. Like MuseScore doesn't think there's any text there. I haven't tried importing one from 2014; maybe it was just Notepad's issue, but I don't know. I'll probably just stick with the printing+pdf-program I have.
Ok, I have updated all of the files. I think I basically did what you were telling me. However, could you help me with the guitar part? I'm at least hearing that part now that I'm listening for it, but I'm still having trouble distinguishing pitches and rhythms. Also, let me know if I need any staccato, accents, etc. anywhere.
Quote from: cqk328 on July 15, 2015, 11:56:35 AMOk, I have updated all of the files. I think I basically did what you were telling me. However, could you help me with the guitar part? I'm at least hearing that part now that I'm listening for it, but I'm still having trouble distinguishing pitches and rhythms. Also, let me know if I need any staccato, accents, etc. anywhere.
Way to take this initiative! I'm very impressed. Do you have a simple audio editor, like Audacity? I think if you slow down the tempo (and maybe play with an Equalizer to favor mid-range frequencies), that would make it a lot easier for you to pick out the guitar part.
Quote from: Bespinben on July 15, 2015, 01:43:06 PMWay to take this initiative! I'm very impressed. Do you have a simple audio editor, like Audacity? I think if you slow down the tempo (and maybe play with an Equalizer to favor mid-range frequencies), that would make it a lot easier for you to pick out the guitar part.
Yea, I have Audacity. I'll try that.
Man, I don't know if this is any good at all. Here's (https://www.dropbox.com/s/uvmqssj60qjmtsy/Super%20Bell%20Hill.musx?dl=0) my attempt. I only did it for the first section, as I didn't want to get too far in case I was way off. See, the problem with equalizing is that it gets rid of the bass but not the melody. And that's what really blocks out the guitar. And I can't get rid of the melody without taking out the guitar as well. I've tried slowing the tempo, using an equalizer, and wearing headphones. I can hear the guitar part, but its kinda distorted and it doesn't help that it plays 2 or 3 note chords and I have to try to make out what that is in order to pick which one note to use in the left hand. Let me know if this is any good.
I personally think the first part measure 1-20 is really good. But the second part measures 21-end could be a bit better. Try picking out the guitar in that part to fill in some of the gaps to say.
Did you know of this website?: http://www.audiostretch.com/audiostretchforflash/
You can use it to slow down your songs basically how much you want to! :)
Quote from: Tobbeh99 on July 15, 2015, 03:05:07 PMI personally think the first part measure 1-20 is really good. But the second part measures 21-end could be a bit better. Try picking out the guitar in that part to fill in some of the gaps to say.
Did you know of this website?: http://www.audiostretch.com/audiostretchforflash/
You can use it to slow down your songs basically how much you want to! :)
Wait, what I have is really good? That's surprising, actually. And the reason it seems to get weak at 21 is because I stopped there. I'll try to finish it up relatively soon. And no, I hadn't heard of the website. Very useful! :D
It sounds really good but I don't know if it's actually correct, haven't listened closely enough. Maybe those guitar notes are thirds I don't know. If so it might actually be a smart choice omitting them, since it might be a bit too much in bass if you add them, and it will also make the arrangement more accessible if you omit them.
Quote from: Tobbeh99 on July 15, 2015, 06:32:40 PMIt sounds really good but I don't know if it's actually correct, haven't listened closely enough. Maybe those guitar notes are thirds I don't know. If so it might actually be a smart choice omitting them, since it might be a bit too much in bass if you add them, and it will also make the arrangement more accessible if you omit them.
They are thirds. But if you want to be able to play both it and the bass, you kinda have to omit one of the notes. Personally, I'd prefer not to put it in, but Bespinben wanted me to do it, and there's a good chance it could be accepted once I finish this guitar part.
If you don't agree with Bespinben, just say so, and explain yourself. It's your arrangement after all.
Quote from: Maelstrom on July 15, 2015, 06:46:13 PMIf you don't agree with Bespinben, just say so, and explain yourself. It's your arrangement after all.
Oh, its not that I don't agree, I just didn't even realize there was a guitar part before. The only objection I have is that it may affect MY ability to play the song. That's not criticism of what Bespinben told me to do. I'm perfectly fine with the changes. New files will be up any second, btw.
New files are up with a completed guitar part. Let me know what you think.
(I was just finishing typing up a reply, until I noticed the files were updated XD)
(Let the following apply only to m. 1-20 then.)
---------------
Quote from: Maelstrom on July 15, 2015, 06:46:13 PMIf you don't agree with Bespinben, just say so, and explain yourself. It's your arrangement after all.
My goal isn't to load this arrangement up with a ton of fluff -- it was good to begin with from the start. However, you can't reduce and simplify something if you don't know all the original parts, something cqk328 stated he had trouble discerning (ex: the guitar line). This was often why a lot of my early 2011 arrangements were duets, as they were moreso a preliminary transcription of a song in preparation for the forthcoming solo arrangement.
That said, seeing now that that cqk328 HAS written out all the parts, now we can
trim the fat, so to speak. We can (and should) omit a lot of the chords from the guitar line, picking the ones that best represent its melodic contour and inverting as necessary to fit within a human handspan (10th max). We should also consider trimming down the RH as well where appropriate (like the 3rds for example).
To give an example, I reworked what cqk328 has done for m. 1-20.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/35209091/SM3DW%20-%20Super%20Bell%20Hill%20%28demo%20ver%202%29.musx
(Also, since we're getting near to the end of the arranging end of things, start taking note of the specific formatting principles in my example sheet [like the measure distribution]. Good aesthetics go a long way.)
Quote from: Bespinben on July 15, 2015, 07:37:32 PM(I was just finishing typing up a reply, until I noticed the files were updated XD)
(Let the following apply only to m. 1-20 then.)
---------------My goal isn't to load this arrangement up with a ton of fluff -- it was good to begin with from the start. However, you can't reduce and simplify something if you don't know all the original parts, something cqk328 stated he had trouble discerning (ex: the guitar line). This was often why a lot of my early 2011 arrangements were duets, as they were moreso a preliminary transcription of a song in preparation for the forthcoming solo arrangement.
That said, seeing now that that cqk328 HAS written out all the parts, now we can trim the fat, so to speak. We can (and should) omit a lot of the chords from the guitar line, picking the ones that best represent its melodic contour and inverting as necessary to fit within a human handspan (10th max). We should also consider trimming down the RH as well where appropriate (like the 3rds for example).
To give an example, I reworked what cqk328 has done for m. 1-20.
(Also, since we're getting near to the end of the arranging end of things, start taking note of the specific formatting principles in my example sheet [like the measure distribution]. Good aesthetics go a long way.)
I agree completely. I knew that when I left some stuff out the first time I arranged this, updaters would eventually want me to put it back in so they could see where it fit and where it didn't. So this "trimming the fat" stuff only applies to 1-20 or should I start removing stuff from the rest? Oh yea, and about the measures, is there something to do in Finale 2014 about measure distribution, or do you just adjust them manually?
Btw updated the files with your 1-20 changes. Man, I'm starting to feel like this is more Bespinben's then mine :D. I know it's not, but still.
Quote from: Bespinben on May 31, 2015, 01:26:27 PMI've kind of made it a tradition of mine to "man-handle" at least once the sheet of a user I've never gotten to critique before. This way, I feel like you can see the ideal form of what an arrangement could look like, and model accordingly for future sheets (thus preventing me from enacting further privacy invasions :P).
Hey, its a good strategy! Never said there was anything wrong with it! :)
Oh yea, and I updated all files (except the midi, of course) to show better measure distribution. Much more aesthetically pleasing, if I may say so myself.
Just want to let you know that your arrangement is under the wrong title. The version you have arranged is known as "Super Mario 3D World Theme." Super Bell Hill has many differences, the biggest two being that they both have a different introduction, and "Super Mario 3D World Theme" plays differently on the repeat, with an ending, whereas Super Bell Hill simply repeats indefinitely after about a minute. You seem to have elements of both mixed into this : /
Quote from: Olimar12345 on July 17, 2015, 07:25:16 PMJust want to let you know that your arrangement is under the wrong title. The version you have arranged is known as "Super Mario 3D World Theme." Super Bell Hill has many differences, the biggest two being that they both have a different introduction, and "Super Mario 3D World Theme" plays differently on the repeat, with an ending, whereas Super Bell Hill simply repeats indefinitely after about a minute. You seem to have elements of both mixed into this : /
I could be wrong, but I think the only thing I have from the theme song arrangement is the extra 2 measures of intro. And to be fair, those measures do play when you play Super Bell Hill in game. Since that's the only course where the extra intro plays, I should probably get rid of it. Let me know if there are any other aspects of the theme song that shouldn't be in Super Bell Hill.
Not really sure which tune you want to arrange, but if you're going to stick with Super Bell Hill, you could use this version for starters:
And the intro for this one isn't just he last half of the other one. This one starts on beat one, as opposed to the up beat of four, and the sax pick ups are a different rhythm.
Quote from: Olimar12345 on July 17, 2015, 08:16:56 PMNot really sure which tune you want to arrange, but if you're going to stick with Super Bell Hill, you could use this version for starters:
And the intro for this one isn't just he last half of the other one. This one starts on beat one, as opposed to the up beat of four, and the sax pick ups are a different rhythm.
Ok, I listened through this one, and it sounds like aside from the intro, these songs are identical (and ignoring the second repeat through the theme song that has the key change). I slipped up on my words, too. I meant to say they were ALMOST the same. Not exactly. My bad.
Ok, the files have been updated. I fixed the intro and one small rhythm (that was probably incorrect already), but like I said, they're almost the same.
Quote from: Olimar12345 on July 17, 2015, 08:16:56 PMNot really sure which tune you want to arrange, but if you're going to stick with Super Bell Hill, you could use this version for starters:
You can't trust Youtube OSTs. Watch this LP of World 1-1... the WHOLE 4 measures are part of the intro.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhQQRc1RehY
Quote from: Bespinben on July 17, 2015, 10:12:50 PMYou can't trust Youtube OSTs. Watch this LP of World 1-1... the WHOLE 4 measures are part of the intro.
Yep, that has come up before. When this track is played in ANY other "Overworld" level BESIDES Super Bell Hill, those first two are omitted. The whole 3D World OST (which I have in my Unofficial 3D World project thread) lists Super Bell Hill and the Theme Song of Super Mario 3D World as two different songs, and only the latter contains the lengthened intro. I think its best to leave it out. Since this much of the two songs is similar, I'll probably just end up arranging both and putting the longer intro in the other one.
Quote from: Bespinben on July 17, 2015, 10:12:50 PMYou can't trust Youtube OSTs. Watch this LP of World 1-1... the WHOLE 4 measures are part of the intro.
This isn't a YouTube soundtrack we're talking about here, this is an officially released, (http://www.mariowiki.com/Super_Mario_3D_World_Original_Soundtrack) directly (http://vgmdb.net/album/42692) from Nintendo, (http://vgmdb.net/album/45414) PHYSICAL (http://www.mariowiki.com/Super_Mario_3D_World_Original_Soundtrack#/image/File:Soundtrack_JP_-_Super_Mario_3D_World.png) soundtrack. We've always opted for the official titles/tracks.
I'm inclined to believe you; however, the multitude of links you shared were all to NAMES of the track. I still can't be 100% certain that GilvaSunner is using the ACTUAL official OST.
That said, my reasoning for believing you is because, after reading those wikis, the track lengths matched those of the GilvaSunner uploads. I could still be ultra-mega skeptical and claim that as non-sequitur, but... that'd be making too many assumptions on my part.
tl;dr - I stand corrected.
I know it doesn't mean much right now, but I have a physical copy of the CD and can verify that the information I presented was correct.
Quote from: Olimar12345 on July 18, 2015, 12:01:05 AMI know it doesn't mean much right now, but I have a physical copy of the CD and can verify that the information I presented was correct.
That means everything! It was the whole crux of my argument.
(That said, I always found it odd finding incongruences between the game and the OST... but the mystery is solved, so I'm satisfied)
Gee, you guys are really beating into the ground XD
Quote from: mariolegofan on July 18, 2015, 08:14:31 AMGee, you guys are really beating into the ground XD
I know, it's fun to watch them! :)
Haha..... Only kidding. I just want to see this amazing arrangement on the site :P
Umm wasn't this accepted last time I checked? d:
Quote from: DonValentino on July 18, 2015, 08:51:34 AMUmm wasn't this accepted last time I checked? d:
I don't think so. Yug_Guy did an arrangement of the same song a while back and the post was deleted recently, but mine hasn't been accepted yet.
Hey guys, just a little warning here. I will be leaving for vacation tomorrow afternoon. I will have no access to Finale until next Friday (the 31st). I will have Internet access tomorrow, but from the next day until I come home I will not, as we will be in Mexico. I might be able to use my cell service occasionally to make short replies, but that's about it. Unless I get lucky and there is free computer access. Anyway, just wanted to let you know. I know you were planning on getting this song in the next update, and if there are any more corrections necessary, please let me know ASAP. Thanks! :)
Not sure if we'll get this one in the next update, but hey, at least you got Mario Kart 64 in!
There's nothing particularly wrong perse with your transcription of m. 21+, but ironically I feel like the way you originally wrote it better captured the rhythmic feel. Notice how the percussion track really emphasizes that "oom-PA oom-PA" sort of sound, whereas it didn't in m. 3-18? Try to bring back some of that spirit.
Oh, and REALLY listen carefully to those chords at m. 19-20. There's some really funky 7ths that really make that progression jiving.
Here, just updated the mus and musx so you can check out my updated bass pattern for 21+. Almost exactly what I had before. Have not updated 19 and 20 yet.
I was unable to get those sevenths in 19 and 20 before I had to leave. If that's really the only thing left, could someone put those in? If there are any other issues, I will not be able to fix them until next Friday.
I'll just leave these comments here:
-Why is there a third ending? It should just have the first and second.
-Your title and subtitle aren't center-aligned.
-Your composer and arranger names aren't right-aligned.
-Your copyright info isn't center-aligned.
-Missing the title on page two.
-Missing the page number on page two.
-You have an inconsistency with a rhythm in the first layer of the LH in a few spots. measure 5 and 21 have the same rhythm in the first layer of the LH, but in 21 you also beam all three notes together. Generally, you use a tie when you can't use a larger note value meaning that the situation wouldn't be bared together anyway, so it looks odd. Either tie the eighth notes without beams, or make them all quarter notes.
-The articulation in the intro seems like it could have been chosen better. I'd have done staccato - staccato - slur - staccato - accent - marcato.
-Over all, the piece sounds pretty cool in finale, but it seems way to difficult, almost like it was written for finale and not a pianist. try to keep in mind most people only have two hands. d:
I'm in a hurry, so I'll number these so I don't have to quote multiple times. (Numbers match up with each of your points.
1. Oh, I had it there because I preferred Finale to end it there. It can be deleted. (Bespinben?)
2. Bespinben??
3. Bespinben???
4. Bespinben????
5. Bespinben?????
6. Bespinben??????
7. Whoops. Finale did that by itself. Must not have caught it. My bad. (Bespinben???????)
8. Yea, I still had never changed the articulation from when I had a 4 measure intro. I was just waiting for one of you guys to say something. Don't know why I didn't take the initiative. (Bespinben????????)
9. Well, I do agree with what you are saying there, but Bespinben insisted on putting the guitar part in. And I do like it there, remember I just hadn't noticed it in the background before. I know that the biggest reach in this song is a 9th or so (not saying that the rhythm could be impossible in some places). I'll leave it up to the updaters. (Bespinben?????????)
(By the way, I keep putting Bespinben's name so he can see these changes bc I have no Finale. Gotta go.
And for some reason 3 question marks in a row=;). Because that makes sense. Anyway now that I have some time before my flight takes off, I can explain myself better. First of all, Bespinben doesn't need to be the one to update it. But whoever does PLEASE upload a PDF. That's the only file type I can read on my phone. Also, if there are other minor changes either aesthetically or notationally, please feel free to make them. I think there are more scenarios like measure 21 where 2 tied eighths and an untied eighth are beamed together. Stuff like that you can fix. However, if there are too many changes and it becomes too much of your work, then just leave comments on what to fix and I will get to it next Friday night or Saturday. If you make changes that make the sheet acceptable, don't accept the sheet right away. Give me a day or 2 to look at it. If I don't say anything by 2 days, then you can accept it. Thanks in advance! I won't have any more wifi until next Friday, but I will be able to use cell service occasionally. Keep me posted! :)
2 week bump.
Have you made the necessary changes yet?
Quote from: Olimar12345 on August 06, 2015, 09:47:06 AMHave you made the necessary changes yet?
Somewhere halfway through the 4th thread I kinda got lost on what I was supposed to do. Bespinben said "let the following only apply to m. 1-20" and I tried to do it for the whole thing. I don't think there are any unreachable chords and I took out some thirds that were unplayable due to speed. Let me know if there's anything else.
For clarity's sake, have you made these changes yet?
Quote from: Olimar12345 on July 23, 2015, 08:32:46 PMI'll just leave these comments here:
-Why is there a third ending? It should just have the first and second.
-Your title and subtitle aren't center-aligned.
-Your composer and arranger names aren't right-aligned.
-Your copyright info isn't center-aligned.
-Missing the title on page two.
-Missing the page number on page two.
-You have an inconsistency with a rhythm in the first layer of the LH in a few spots. measure 5 and 21 have the same rhythm in the first layer of the LH, but in 21 you also beam all three notes together. Generally, you use a tie when you can't use a larger note value meaning that the situation wouldn't be bared together anyway, so it looks odd. Either tie the eighth notes without beams, or make them all quarter notes.
-The articulation in the intro seems like it could have been chosen better. I'd have done staccato - staccato - slur - staccato - accent - marcato.
-Over all, the piece sounds pretty cool in finale, but it seems way to difficult, almost like it was written for finale and not a pianist. try to keep in mind most people only have two hands. d:
Quote from: Olimar12345 on August 06, 2015, 10:24:45 AMFor clarity's sake, have you made these changes yet?
Hmm, that's weird. I did make those ones. Somehow, I must have forgotten to upload the files. I'm a very forgetful person, if you haven't figured that out yet. The new ones are up now. And that mix up that happened in 21 and 23 was due to Finale's automatic beaming. I probably saw it and then completely forgot to manually break them. I told you, I'm very forgetful :). Now in the last point, you say that it was almost like it was written for Finale, and I gotta say, that is a very accurate statement. It just seems too perfect, almost. Too perfect for most anyone to have the ability to play. The funny thing is, there are no impossible stretches nor crazy thirds or anything. Its indescribable, I think. I want to make it more manageable (partially because I want to learn to play it, too) but at the same time not make it sound dull or thin. I've been playing with a few ideas, but I don't know exactly what I should do. Any ideas on how to make this piece a little more human?
My best piece of advice would be to print out as it is and take it to a piano. Take it as slow as you need and try to play what you have written. It's usually then that you realize what works and what doesn't work.
Quote from: Olimar12345 on August 06, 2015, 12:20:33 PMMy best piece of advice would be to print out as it is and take it to a piano. Take it as slow as you need and try to play what you have written. It's usually then that you realize what works and what doesn't work.
Ok, so I have fiddled around with playing it. I don't think there are any issues in the right hand. However, the left hand is killer on page 2. Now I'm no expert at the piano, and I'm a terrible sight reader, but I think 10 years of piano experience will suffice. That syncopated guitar rhythm just does not mesh with the oom-PA feel Bespinben talked about a few posts back. I mean, I think its better to lose the guitar than the entire feel of the piece. Also, another thing that Bespinben mentioned. The chords in 19 and 20 seem to have something missing, some kind of seventh. I'm having difficulty pinpointing that chord. If you could help me out with that it would be great. Thanks!
Ok, I'm gonna take out the guitar part from page 2. Like Bespinben said:
Quote from: Bespinben on July 23, 2015, 04:19:55 AMNotice how the percussion track really emphasizes that "oom-PA oom-PA" sort of sound, whereas it didn't in m. 3-18? Try to bring back some of that spirit.
Oh, and REALLY listen carefully to those chords at m. 19-20. There's some really funky 7ths that really make that progression jiving.
Oh yea, and that 19 and 20 thing. I'll come back to that. But I want to simplify the bass on the first page too. Any ideas? I want to keep the rhythm of the guitar part but try to keep the part within an octave to tenth in terms of range between the lowest and highest key played. So the highest key I would want played in the bass part would be the C below middle C. (Tenor C, I think its called?) Unless I should move the bass line up an octave. Then the highest note would be middle C. That might be too high though. Let me know what you think.
Ok, I updated the musx only showing what I had in mind for pg 2. Now if you could give me some advice on how to simplify the bass on the first page, that would be great. Oh yea, and the chords on measures 19 and 20 that Bespinben mentioned.
I attempted fixing up the first page too. Tell me what you think!
Only updated the musx, remember.
I myself cannot view musx files (Finale 2012 user here). However, it sounds like this one might take longer than expected until it's ready to go. If you have something else that you feel is in better shape than this one, you can always submit that and hold of on this one until it's ready.
Quote from: Olimar12345 on August 07, 2015, 05:40:37 AMI myself cannot view musx files (Finale 2012 user here). However, it sounds like this one might take longer than expected until it's ready to go. If you have something else that you feel is in better shape than this one, you can always submit that and hold of on this one until it's ready.
Sorry! Forgot about that. Updated the mus now too. In terms of submitting something else, I kinda can't...my 2 submissions are already used up. It sucks, because I do have 2 different songs that are definitely ready.
If you would like, I can close this one for you, freeing up one submission.
Is there anything that he has to do other than making it more playable? Cause this one is SO close.....and it'd be awesome to have it on site.
I can help you CQ if you like?
Quote from: Olimar12345 on August 07, 2015, 05:40:37 AMHowever, it sounds like this one might take longer than expected until it's ready to go.
This is the thing that's kinda been bothering me. What part, exactly, is making this take longer? I understand I need to make it more playable, and I have taken some steps. But it seems like it's been on the brink of acceptance for like 3 weeks. I just want to know what to do to get it over the edge. Plus, I don't want to temporarily delete this one that I put so much time into just to put another one up that I know could be completed in less than 24 hours. Then, I'd have to wait for the next update to put this one back up, just for my record breaking number of posts on a submission topic to increase exponentially.
Quote from: mariolegofan on August 07, 2015, 08:05:36 AMIs there anything that he has to do other than making it more playable? Cause this one is SO close.....and it'd be awesome to have it on site.
I can help you CQ if you like?
I'd love to have assistance, but the problem is I don't know WHAT to fix. And I don't think you would be able to help unless you did. Once Olimar clarifies, I'd love to hear your input.
sorry
Alright guys, just relax.
First, CQ: let me explain, that comment was a miscommunication from my end. What I meant was that it looked like it was taking
you longer than I think you thought it would. I mean, this one submission has seven pages of comments already. I simply suggested that if you had something you felt was more prepared that you should try submitting that instead, so that we could speed up the process for you. I'm sure none of us planned on or anticipated it taking this many revisions, so I offered you a chance to switch this out if you wanted to work on it on your own some more. It was only a suggestion though, you are not obligated to.
As for wait time, I apologize for that. Lately I've been working privately with the Pokémon RBY project, so I haven't been in the submissions as much. I'll try to stay somewhat immersed in submissions in the future (this is what I meant when I said having too many projects can slow everything down).
About the playability: Unlike simple errors, such as wrong notes or rhythms, playability isn't a one-answer kind of issue. This is where the "arranging" happens, you need to find a creative way to make it more accessible and still retain the character of the piece. I might be able to lend a helping hand once I get home tonight though. To help with this for now, try browsing the site and observing what other arrangers have done to get ideas of what you could do.
Mlf:
Quote from: mariolegofan on August 07, 2015, 08:30:09 AMI honestly think it's ready to go (Alas, I am not an Updater though). There might be a few parts that are a little hard to play as a human, but we'll wait to what Olimar says.
Comments like these are unnecessary. You are free to comment on the arrangement at hand, but it is up to me and the other updaters to give the final verdict on arrangements being approved/accepted. Saying that you think an arrangement is "ready to go" only causes confusion and frustration when an updater comes along and says it isn't. I have told you this several times privately in the past, please just let the updaters do their jobs.
So I was fiddling around with the arrangement, and imo 3-20 works much better without the upper layer in the LH. I'd still try to find a way to combine or incorporate a bit from both the second layer in the RH and the second layer in the LH into one accompaniment for just the LH to play. I also like what you started to do with the LH in the second section at mm. 21. My advice would be to keep it all in one layer until it splits into two, then use two layers. Also use layer one when you only have one layer in use.
Another formatting glitch I have found is that the title and page number on page two are much smaller than page one. I think something went wrong when you imported it into finale, because the page scaling for both pages match but the text is still significantly smaller on page two. Those two things need to be the same size as the composer/arranger, 12 pitch font.
About the page two formatting thing, I could tell it looked smaller. When I try to change the font size, it has 12 pt checked. I have no idea why.
So Olimar, for clarity's sake, you want me to take the 2nd layers from both the right and left hands and make them reasonable to be played in just the left hand? The layer stuff in page 2 will be a piece of cake; some of it is just still in the 2nd layer bc there used to be 2 layers. Now the text is really weird. I inserted both of those via the text inserts, page # and title respectively. I'll fool around with them some more, but they say they are 12pt font even though they obviously are not.
Got yet another new mus file posted. It fixes the layer issues. However, I think the text on page 2 is still to small. Apparently 12pt on pg 2 is not equal to 12pt on page 1. Took out the second layer on page 1. Still don't know how I'm going to fill in that left hand. I'll fool around with it.
Idk what happened to your page scaling on page 2, but it would be faster and easier to just copy/paste everything into a new file rather than figure it out. The Xml file transfer process is messy and may often results in errors such as this.
Quote from: Olimar12345 on August 08, 2015, 10:58:05 PMIdk what happened to your page scaling on page 2, but it would be faster and easier to just copy/paste everything into a new file rather than figure it out. The Xml file transfer process is messy and may often results in errors such as this.
Well see, that's the thing. I don't have any xml transfers involved with this song. Ever since I got Finale 2014 I haven't had to use xml at all. Unless a transfer from a really long time ago could affect that...Anyway, I'll probably move it into a new file.
UPDATE: The layer and text issues are both fixed now. I might have an idea on what to do with the left hand, but for now this is what I have. (New mus and musx file in OP) Plus...
Quote from: Bespinben on July 23, 2015, 04:19:55 AMOh, and REALLY listen carefully to those chords at m. 19-20. There's some really funky 7ths that really make that progression jiving.
Bespinben, you should be happy; I think I finally figured out those 7ths!
Made my first attempt at filling in the left hand a bit. Basically just took the rhythm from layer 2 in the right hand and stuck it into the left as well. Due to the way the left hand is presented, it is displayed a little differently. Let me know what you think!
Quote from: TheMarioPianist on August 09, 2015, 07:37:47 PMMade my first attempt at filling in the left hand a bit. Basically just took the rhythm from layer 2 in the right hand and stuck it into the left as well.
YES! Smart move. I use a similar method when adapting percussion parts to the piano.
I'm happy with this accompaniment. If you're not burnt-out just yet, are you familiar with the concept of
spacing in harmony (close vs. open)? Particularly on page 1, I feel like the accompaniment gets little "mushy" sometimes because you have closely spaced bass chords (ex: m. 3, 5, 11, & 13). Fiddle around with what sounds pleasant, and look specifically at the chord to see if you're doubling certain notes that don't need to be (ex: m. 3 -- the doubled 3rd [A] of the F chord).
Quote from: Bespinben on August 09, 2015, 10:45:45 PMYES! Smart move. I use a similar method when adapting percussion parts to the piano.
I'm happy with this accompaniment. If you're not burnt-out just yet, are you familiar with the concept of spacing in harmony (close vs. open)? Particularly on page 1, I feel like the accompaniment gets little "mushy" sometimes because you have closely spaced bass chords (ex: m. 3, 5, 11, & 13). Fiddle around with what sounds pleasant, and look specifically at the chord to see if you're doubling certain notes that don't need to be (ex: m. 3 -- the doubled 3rd [A] of the F chord).
Yea, I didn't think about spacing as much this time through. I kind of took it as a first draft so I at least had something for you guys to go off of. Now that I've taken a break from it and went to that Bowling theme for a little bit, I can get rid of the mushiness. I knew it sounded "mushy" as I was doing it, but I thought it was better to have something than nothing.
Surprisingly, I don't think my chords were as bad as I thought they were. They should be less "mushy" now.
In an effort to push this along, I made some edits. Check out [this] (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/59554832/nsm/Super%20Bell%20Hill12345.mus) version and tell me what you think of it.
Great!
I just have a question. Couldn't you just put it in 2/2?
Quote from: mariolegofan on August 10, 2015, 03:20:04 PMI just have a question. Couldn't you just put it in 2/2?
Yes, you could. However, I didn't because there are plenty of jazz and big band tunes written in 4/4 with an "in '2'" feel. Big band and swing music has like its own aura of rules when it comes to notation, that often seem to contradict standard notation practices.
You're right. I do think it'd look more jazzy if you kept it in 4/4 like it is.
So is this awesome arrangement finally accepted? :)
Hold on, let me look at what he did first...
Of course
Quote from: mariolegofan on August 10, 2015, 08:25:33 PMSo is this awesome arrangement finally accepted? :)
Aww dontcha wanna see it get to 10 pages?
Let's see:
Split layers in spots where I should have-Check
Added grace notes that I should have added-Check
Spiced up the piece very well-Check
I like it. I like it a lot.
Files will be updated momentarily.
Quote from: Bespinben on August 10, 2015, 08:28:56 PMAww dontcha wanna see it get to 10 pages?
Well, this one holds the record already (thanks to my habit of consecutive posting) but 10 pages would be a nice milestone ;D.
Then again, my Super Mario 3D World folder for arrangements on Dropbox currently has 11 songs. (Ok, they aren't all mine.) But 7 of them are. And they won't get accepted if too many of my arrangements are breaking the wrong records.
Oh no! The record holder has like 300 more views! That is not right! I must win!
This submission has been accepted by Olimar12345 (http://forum.ninsheetmusic.org/index.php?action=profile;u=83).
~Zeta, your friendly NSM-Bot