Submission Information:
Series: Other
Game: Undertale
Console: PC
Title: Heartache
Instrumentation Solo Piano
Arranger: Madmonk12345 (http://forum.ninsheetmusic.org/index.php?action=profile;u=4732)
Let's see if this is ready for submission.
I'm not sure how playable this would be, especially at 240bpm. I'd imagine it'd be very difficult if not impossible
The metronome mark is wrong/confusing. The mark for compound meter such as 6/8 should be a dotted value, such as dotted quarter. Btw. now when I listen to the song I think that the time signature should be 3/4, or a longer (2 measures) 6/8.
While what you have sounds amazing (truly), the way it is notated makes it unwieldy for human use. This is not to say the arrangement itself unplayable, but that the accumulation of disorganized layer usage, ambiguity of hand placement, and (here's a biggie) planning triads on 16ths creates serious roadblocks.
I think before you do anything else though, the biggest hurdle that needs to be done is halving all your note durations so that your 6/8 time signature will make sense. Here's what I mean:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/35209091/hearttimesig.PNG)
See how much cleaner this is? Not only do you see the beat patterns easily, but now all the accompaniment figures all neatly beamed together.
Quote from: Bespinben on November 25, 2015, 02:41:46 PMWhile what you have sounds amazing (truly), the way it is notated makes it unwieldy for human use. This is not to say the arrangement itself unplayable, but that the accumulation of disorganized layer usage, ambiguity of hand placement, and (here's a biggie) planning triads on 16ths creates serious roadblocks.
I think before you do anything else though, the biggest hurdle that needs to be done is halving all your note durations so that your 6/8 time signature will make sense. Here's what I mean:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/35209091/hearttimesig.PNG)
See how much cleaner this is? Not only do you see the beat patterns easily, but now all the accompaniment figures all neatly beamed together.
I disagree with that picture and say that the entire thing should be in 3/4, with each 6/8 measure displayed in 3/4 instead with quarter note = 80.
Are you telling me you hear this song like this? (Btw, it would be 120 bpm if done this way)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/35209091/timesigwat.PNG)
That is simply not correct. There are several indications that the beat falls on each dotted quarter instead of at quarters. Look at the LH of m. 1-3 for instance. In the 3/4 version, the beaming of the RH doesn't match up with the LH pattern, indicating something amiss.
EDIT: Perhaps I misunderstood. Did you mean this?
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/35209091/timesigwat%281%29.PNG)
Even so, the bpm of 240 is a dead giveaway that this is not a proper time signature. This is not a prestissimo piece, nor a waltz.
Quote from: Tobbeh99 on November 25, 2015, 02:15:13 PMThe metronome mark is wrong/confusing. The mark for compound meter such as 6/8 should be a dotted value, such as dotted quarter. Btw. now when I listen to the song I think that the time signature should be 3/4, or a longer (2 measures) 6/8.
Unfortunately I cannot fix either of those without creating new problems. I can't put in metronome marks and if I copy it to another file in 3/4 I won't be able to remove the abbreviated piano markings like I had someone else do, who is also the person who put in the metronome mark.
Can you or someone else do that?
Quote from: Bespinben on November 25, 2015, 02:41:46 PMWhile what you have sounds amazing (truly), the way it is notated makes it unwieldy for human use. This is not to say the arrangement itself unplayable, but that the accumulation of disorganized layer usage, ambiguity of hand placement, and (here's a biggie) planning triads on 16ths creates serious roadblocks.
I think before you do anything else though, the biggest hurdle that needs to be done is halving all your note durations so that your 6/8 time signature will make sense. Here's what I mean:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/35209091/hearttimesig.PNG)
See how much cleaner this is? Not only do you see the beat patterns easily, but now all the accompaniment figures all neatly beamed together.
...That's a lot of work. is there some sort of script or quicker way to handle such a conversion?
Also, would changing to 3/4ths avoid that? I'm not sure I'm determined enough to do that if there's no script driven shenanigans to solve that. We're talking like 3-4 hours of clicking every note in the song to make it small and then copy pasting every other measure into the measure before it.
The solution isn't raising the lower notes an octave for measures 5 and 6; the top notes are an octave above the melody so thee lower notes can be played by the right hand. the only reason I never included them there is because I couldn't make clef changes; if I could have I would have separated them from the very beginning.
A lot of these decisions leading to poor notation weren't made by choice really; I've been doing the best I can with what Finale Notepad allows me.
Quote from: Madmonk12345 on November 25, 2015, 03:29:42 PMA lot of these decisions leading to poor notation weren't made by choice really; I've been doing the best I can with what Finale Notepad allows me.
Frustrating right? Makemusic offers a 30-day trial of Finale 2014. I highly recommend it. Talk to me once it expires, and we can work something out.
Quote from: Bespinben on November 25, 2015, 02:54:46 PMAre you telling me you hear this song like this? (Btw, it would be 120 bpm if done this way)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/35209091/timesigwat.PNG)
That is simply not correct. There are several indications that the beat falls on each dotted quarter instead of at quarters. Look at the LH of m. 1-3 for instance. In the 3/4 version, the beaming of the RH doesn't match up with the LH pattern, indicating something amiss.
Yes, that is what I mean. It becomes much more clear as the theme proceeds past the introduction in my opinion.
OK, updated it in the way that Bespinben was looking for; I thought I had used up my Finale trial long ago, but apparently not.
What do you mean by triads on 16ths though? Meaning escaping me at the moment.
Also, it won't let me upload a new pdf for some reason. Says the file is too large. What should I do?
Sorry for the noobish edit. It definitely looks much cleaner now though!
Quote from: Madmonk12345 on November 25, 2015, 10:51:24 PMWhat do you mean by triads on 16ths though? Meaning escaping me at the moment.
I believe he meant placing triads (a group of three notes) is impractical at that speed, but I could be wrong
Quote from: Madmonk12345 on November 25, 2015, 10:51:24 PMAlso, it won't let me upload a new pdf for some reason. Says the file is too large. What should I do?
If the site is talking about the group of attachments, then perhaps there is a way to delete the old ones since you have two groups of files. If not, then you could try uploading the pdf to dropbox and editing it into the 2nd post, but I don't know if that is acceptable or if there is another (better) way to solve that problem
You have to go to the NSM Panel, your submission will be displayed and at the right of it there's a notepad to edit it. That should make proper updates.
Got it working. I suspect the problem was that Finale has a larger file for the pdf when saving than Notepad does, which was too large for the uploader.
Quote from: Bespinben on November 25, 2015, 02:54:46 PM(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/35209091/timesigwat.PNG)
Am I the only one who hears it this way? To me this seems undoubtably like the correct notation.
As for the left hand notes in the beginning not falling on the beat in 3/4... that's just syncopation. This comes up multiple times throughout the course of theme, but the main melody in areas such as m8-11 is a giveaway to the 3/4 time signature.
Am I alone in thinking this?
Quote from: mastersuperfan on November 26, 2015, 10:34:55 AMAs for the left hand notes in the beginning not falling on the beat in 3/4... that's just syncopation. This comes up multiple times throughout the course of theme, but the main melody in areas such as m8-11 is a giveaway to the 3/4 time signature.
You know, it may actually be both. The melody portions certainly have a 3/4 feel to them, but the bassline to me is almost certainly 6/8. Apart from that, each phrase in each measure seems to be broken into two pieces, not three, which I think lends more credence to the piece being in 6/8 overall.
^^
Emm yes I guess. I feel it as a 6/8, or a 3/8.
Quote from: mastersuperfan on November 26, 2015, 10:34:55 AMareas such as m8-11 is a giveaway to the 3/4 time signature.
To me it still sounds like 6/8 at that part. If you wanna see it, try re-writing the half note in measure 9 into a dotted quarter tied to an eighth, and then you'll see that the whole melody part for measures 8-11 clearly follows a beat of dotted quarters while matching beaming with the left hand.
...Well, I guess it's just me then. ;_;
Though you guys don't seem to hear it as I do, my reasoning is that the 6/8-ish parts work fine as syncopated voices in 3/4, but the 3/4-ish melody doesn't fit in 6/8.
While this debate is interesting, it doesn't answer the current central question and can be decided later, especially because each option has the same number of measures with the same contents. What more (if anything) needs to be changed to make the piece acceptable for submission by the site? What has to go and what can stay given difficulty requirements?
Quote from: Zeila on November 26, 2015, 01:05:04 AMI believe he meant placing triads (a group of three notes) is impractical at that speed, but I could be wrong
Three problems with that interpretation: he was describing changes relating to transcription instead of difficulty, there were no quarter notes with triads in the original version because of the halved speed on the measures, and the only triads that lead into each other with 16ths with the new version that are in the piece are pretty natural progressions outside of the left hand rolled chords which have a space to prepare your hand before each of them.
Don't worry about the edit though. It was a good start.
Edited the document. pretty minor changes however. Please review and take a look so this can get the changes it needs for submission; I don't want to run out of my month of Finale making this unchangable and likely never accepted due to no one being both able and willing to put in the effort. It sounds so wonderful; it'd be a shame to throw the 30-40 hours I've tossed into this away.
Space everything farther apart vertically; a lot of things are overlapping or coming very close.
Some dynamics overlap with staves and notes.
Some of the notations aren't really practical without pedaling. For example, in m9, that chord cannot be held, so arpeggiating it is useless unless the pianist should be using the pedal. Also, m31. I don't think pedaling would work out very well in this arrangement, though, so you're going to have to find a workaround.
Thanks for the reply. I've made the appropriate changes and updated all the files, but it's not going to fit on 5 pages anymore because measures any further spread out aren't going to fit 5 rows per page. What should be done?
Also, on measure 11 and any measures that repeat that portion, there's a tenth. I can play it, but my hands are rather big. I can't raise the note below an octave like I did for previous sections however as it would be the same note twice in the lower layer. What (if anything) should I do about this?
There were one or two rolled chords with extended duration that I could have changed, but lack of pedal wouldn't have been an issue anyways. it's mezzoforte and fades pretty quickly.
Um...which files are which?
Heartache draft 4 is. Oops. Decided to start numbering them here, didn't really think it would be confusing.
Just realized I worded that poorly. Heartache draft 4 is the newer version.
It does sound really good and faithful - it's obvious you put a lot of effort into it. But there are a few things keeping it from that next level of quality.
- It is best to not obscure the beat division - both beats in 6/8 time need to be clear. For this reason, half-notes should not be used in 6/8 time (unless the accentuation is momentarily 3/4, which is never the case in this song). Rewrite each of them as a dotted quarter tied to an eighth.
- The B-naturals in 31-36 should be written as C-flats. Look at the RH chord in 32 for example: it's actually a root-position triad, but it looks like a second-inversion one. C-flats will reinforce that intervallic relationship properly.
- Temporary part splitting, such as in 9 and 10, should be done beatwise - you should not hide rests that complete the beat. For example, either the eighth rest in 9 be made visible, or the quarter note be extended to a dotted quarter (I would do the latter).
- 7 could be taken a step further by combining the secondary voices of both staves into a double-stemmed beam.
- Trailing rests of a beat in compound time, such as LH 13 and 14, should show all subdivisions. Instead of eighth note then quarter rest, it should be eighth note followed by two eighth rests (but quarter note followed by eighth note is acceptable).
- I would avoid using ff everywhere because it loses its power - save it for the most dramatic moments of the piece, use f elsewhere.
- Grace note groups should be connected to the principle note with a slur.
- I'm not sure how, but you somehow put a staccato on rests in 13 and 16.
These are just notation points; I haven't thoroughly investigated the arrangement's accuracy (but I noticed a few notes in LH 11-12).
I'm looking forward to the next iteration =)
Quote from: Olimar12345 on December 30, 2015, 06:55:49 PMWith this now being an official project, EVERYONE REMOVE YOUR UNDERTALE SUBMISSIONS AND INSTEAD POST THEM HERE.
Free up your submissions for other pieces and get your Undertale arrangements all in one spot here:
http://forum.ninsheetmusic.org/index.php?topic=7974.0
Quote from: Olimar12345 on December 30, 2015, 08:32:20 PMFree up your submissions for other pieces and get your Undertale arrangements all in one spot here:
http://forum.ninsheetmusic.org/index.php?topic=7974.0