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NinSheetMusic => Submission Center => Submission Archive => Topic started by: Zeta on December 02, 2015, 09:00:25 PM

Title: [NDS] Ace Attorney Investigations: Miles Edgeworth 2 - "Raymond Shields ~ Joking Motive" by Altissim
Post by: Zeta on December 02, 2015, 09:00:25 PM
Submission Information:

Series: Ace Attorney
Game: Ace Attorney Investigations: Miles Edgeworth 2
Console: Nintendo DS
Title: Raymond Shields ~ Joking Motive
Instrumentation Solo Piano
Arranger: Altissimo (http://forum.ninsheetmusic.org/index.php?action=profile;u=3843)

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Title: Re: [NDS] Ace Attorney Investigations: Miles Edgeworth 2 - "Raymond Shields ~ Joking Motive" by Alti
Post by: Altissimo on December 02, 2015, 09:13:11 PM

Hoo boy. Many comments/questions about this.

Formatting

1) The game's title on-site is "Ace Attorney Investigations: Miles Edgeworth 2". This is kind of a theoretical title, because the game, though a sequel to "Ace Attorney Investigations: Miles Edgeworth", was never properly released in English (only given a fan-translated patch). The game's Japanese title is Gyakuten Kenji 2 (translates roughly to Turnabout Prosecutor 2). There are two AAI2 sheets on site: one (http://www.ninsheetmusic.org/download/pdf/2437) which gives the game-title as "Turnabout Prosecutor 2 (Ace Attorney Investigations: Miles Edgeworth 2)" and one (http://www.ninsheetmusic.org/download/pdf/2481) which gives the title as "Gyakuten Kenji 2". Obviously, neither of these match up with the site's title. I chose Gyakuten Kenji 2 for this, but it might be worth coming to a standardization on this.

2) This song's title is the theme song for one of the characters introduced in this game. This means he doesn't have an official English name, but as you can see above, even Youtube soundtracks prefer to use the fan-translation's name of Raymond Shields over the Japanese name Tateyuki Shigaraki. The on-site sheet (http://www.ninsheetmusic.org/download/pdf/2481) for another character uses the Japanese name over the English name. I chose the English name to keep consistency with both the Youtube video and the NSM site's calling the game by the English name "Ace Attorney Investigations: Miles Edgeworth 2". Again, a verdict on this would be helpful.

Musical
This is the first song I'm submitting for a DS game so my arrangement may currently be subpar as a reflection of some difficulties I had in interpreting harmonies.

a) This song is in the A blues scale, which gives the notes as A C D E-flat E-nat G A. This means that it differs from A major in that A major's C# and G# are made natural. I have it notated as A-major with consistently naturalized C and G. Should this be the key signature, or should it more accurately reflect the actual accidentals used in the piece? (Or should it even be based off the A minor key, considering the A chord that permeates is a minor one?)

b) Not sure about the playability of the left hand. The easiest solution is to remove the top note from each of the chord hits, though.

c) I'd LOVE to incorporate the sliding-piano-thing in m. 56 but I dunno how that even is notated in music, and if it's even possible to incorporate it without disturbing the melody.

I might think of more things but that's all for the moment
Title: Re: [NDS] Ace Attorney Investigations: Miles Edgeworth 2 - "Raymond Shields ~ Joking Motive" by Alti
Post by: mastersuperfan on December 03, 2015, 03:46:20 PM
Your links seem to be broken.
Title: Re: [NDS] Ace Attorney Investigations: Miles Edgeworth 2 - "Raymond Shields ~ Joking Motive" by Alti
Post by: Altissimo on December 03, 2015, 03:57:09 PM
They... seem to be working fine for me? (Like, I can re-download them without issue.) I can't fix it if I don't see the problem though lmao
Title: Re: [NDS] Ace Attorney Investigations: Miles Edgeworth 2 - "Raymond Shields ~ Joking Motive" by Alti
Post by: mastersuperfan on December 05, 2015, 05:53:03 PM
They're still broken for me. When I download, I just end up with a file called index.php.

Oh, well. It's working on your Personal Arrangement Thread, so I'll check it out from there (provided that the version you last posted is the current one).
Title: Re: [NDS] Ace Attorney Investigations: Miles Edgeworth 2 - "Raymond Shields ~ Joking Motive" by Alti
Post by: Altissimo on December 05, 2015, 06:25:19 PM
No... they're not the same version. I'll go post these links there, though, and see if you can get them.
Title: Re: [NDS] Ace Attorney Investigations: Miles Edgeworth 2 - "Raymond Shields ~ Joking Motive" by Alti
Post by: mastersuperfan on December 05, 2015, 06:33:05 PM
It's awfully cramped as is--I suggest fitting three measures per line.

Put the mezzo-forte in between the right and left hand staves instead of below the left hand.

In m13, change the two consecutive eighth rests to a quarter rest.

I think the big thing about transcribing this to piano is that the piano chords in the original overlap with the melody, which, I assume, prompted you to move the chords an octave down into the left hand. I'm not positive about this, but I personally think it would sound much better if the sections with the melody and the piano chords were transposed an octave up. The chords right now are very muddy in the low register, so I think that would be a better solution.
Title: Re: [NDS] Ace Attorney Investigations: Miles Edgeworth 2 - "Raymond Shields ~ Joking Motive" by Alti
Post by: Altissimo on December 05, 2015, 07:54:15 PM
Quote from: mastersuperfan on December 05, 2015, 06:33:05 PMI think the big thing about transcribing this to piano is that the piano chords in the original overlap with the melody, which, I assume, prompted you to move the chords an octave down into the left hand. I'm not positive about this, but I personally think it would sound much better if the sections with the melody and the piano chords were transposed an octave up. The chords right now are very muddy in the low register, so I think that would be a better solution.

Actually, the issue I had with the chords wasn't that they were too high, initially. The very bottom notes of the bass line, throughout, represent a hard-to-hear actual bass line that is played by a single instrument and not accompanied by chords. It's an octave lower than written here, so I jumped it up in order to avoid the very muddying you discuss - because the left hand cannot simultaneously play the low bass and the chords, whether in the register you're suggesting or the register I wrote them in. However, you are right that it sounds less muddy up an octave.

MID (https://www.dropbox.com/s/gr7h96dqutgda7c/%22Joking%20Motive%222.mid?dl=0) / MUS (https://www.dropbox.com/s/15eak4jhsb31htr/%22Joking%20Motive%222a.mus?dl=0) / PDF (https://www.dropbox.com/s/j39uio0vy1bdc64/%22Joking%20Motive%222a.pdf?dl=0)

How's this? I did both the transposition and the other things you recommended. (Didn't update OP so that people can compare the difference.) Some notes on the transposition though:
-Some notes of the LH chords were taken out in order to avoid confusion/overlap with the RH melody.
-M. 1-3 (and repetitions thereof) were left un-transposed to keep the distinctive feel they have, since they're not chords - only octaves.
-M. 40 was left in the original octave for the same reason.
-M. 45-47 were kept in the original octave to avoid confusion with the RH in m. 46-47. Following the chordless baseline of m. 48 (which did go up the octave), it m. 49+ are in the higher octave.
-M. 56, a chordless bass, stays in the original octave, again to avoid confusion with the RH.

As always thoughts and comments appreciated. (I'm especially curious about m. 26-27, if it's better in the higher octave or not - or whether it sounds okay in general.)
Title: Re: [NDS] Ace Attorney Investigations: Miles Edgeworth 2 - "Raymond Shields ~ Joking Motive" by Alti
Post by: Altissimo on December 12, 2015, 08:19:48 AM
2nd-page bump.
Title: Re: [NDS] Ace Attorney Investigations: Miles Edgeworth 2 - "Raymond Shields ~ Joking Motive" by Alti
Post by: Altissimo on December 18, 2015, 01:50:27 PM
Bump.
Title: Re: [NDS] Ace Attorney Investigations: Miles Edgeworth 2 - "Raymond Shields ~ Joking Motive" by Alti
Post by: Altissimo on December 22, 2015, 07:03:19 PM
bump
Title: Re: [NDS] Ace Attorney Investigations: Miles Edgeworth 2 - "Raymond Shields ~ Joking Motive" by Alti
Post by: Altissimo on December 26, 2015, 08:41:58 AM
bump
Title: Re: [NDS] Ace Attorney Investigations: Miles Edgeworth 2 - "Raymond Shields ~ Joking Motive" by Alti
Post by: Altissimo on December 30, 2015, 01:12:33 PM
bump
Title: Re: [NDS] Ace Attorney Investigations: Miles Edgeworth 2 - "Raymond Shields ~ Joking Motive" by Alti
Post by: Altissimo on January 08, 2016, 10:20:44 AM
this time it has been like a week, gasp
bump
Title: Re: [NDS] Ace Attorney Investigations: Miles Edgeworth 2 - "Raymond Shields ~ Joking Motive" by Alti
Post by: Onionleaf on January 09, 2016, 05:09:13 PM
So groovy! You've done so much work on this, I hope it'll be approved for you soon. :)

-It would be awesome to add the glissando in m. 56, to add some extra flare! You can use the glissando tool for that (the same one you use for arpeggiation, located in the Smart Shape toolbar). I'm not quite sure how to alter its Playback to make the run sound how you want it to, but maybe someone else can help you with that. :) It should look something like this (see below), but as I've never used them this way before, don't copy me, lol!

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/108749630/Arrangements/Requests/jokingmotivegliss.png)

-You might like to check those chords in m. 26-27 again, to me it sounds like the chord needs to be more "jazzy". Not quite sure what it needs to look like at the moment, sorry I can't be of much help.

-You might like to listen through the track again and see if the trumpet voice that crops up occasionally (for example, in m. 7-8) could be added in other places as well.

-I see what you mean about the playability in the left hand in measures 41-44. You could try lowering the chords a bit or play the highest note in the chord with the right hand. Here's what I mean, but you can experiment with it more and see what sounds best:

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/108749630/Arrangements/Requests/jokingmotivechords.png)

-Finally, change the dotted half rest in m. 40 to a half rest + a quarter rest.

Hopefully someone with a bit more experience will stop on by to review your sheet, but I'm really liking it so far!
Title: Re: [NDS] Ace Attorney Investigations: Miles Edgeworth 2 - "Raymond Shields ~ Joking Motive" by Alti
Post by: Altissimo on January 09, 2016, 06:24:12 PM
Quote from: Onionleaf on January 09, 2016, 05:09:13 PMSo groovy! You've done so much work on this, I hope it'll be approved for you soon. :)

me too, it's been in submission for like a month lol

Quote-It would be awesome to add the glissando in m. 56, to add some extra flare! You can use the glissando tool for that (the same one you use for arpeggiation, located in the Smart Shape toolbar). I'm not quite sure how to alter its Playback to make the run sound how you want it to, but maybe someone else can help you with that. :) It should look something like this (see below), but as I've never used them this way before, don't copy me, lol!

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/108749630/Arrangements/Requests/jokingmotivegliss.png)

I FOUND A WAY TO PUT IT IN IT DOESN'T SOUND TERRIFIC BUT IT WORKS OK

Quote-You might like to check those chords in m. 26-27 again, to me it sounds like the chord needs to be more "jazzy". Not quite sure what it needs to look like at the moment, sorry I can't be of much help.

I'm pretty sure you're not wrong... more specifically I think what I had notated as Fmaj in m. 25/26 is actually Fmaj7 and the E chord (which jumps between major and minor) in m. 27 actually contains the minor 7th D. I think. I'm really damn bad with harmonies lol

Quote-You might like to listen through the track again and see if the trumpet voice that crops up occasionally (for example, in m. 7-8) could be added in other places as well.

What I've left out is pretty deliberate... I really don't want to compromise the feel of the trumpet line by messing around with its octave too much but most of the time it's not really playable alongside the melody. Plus, this way the piece retains a pretty consistent singular melody feel, which I like. If others think the extra trumpet lines would enhance it though I'll probably go ahead and see if I can add them in. But I just don't think it's right to mess with the octaves of the melody or countermelody, it screws up the feel D:

Quote-I see what you mean about the playability in the left hand in measures 41-44. You could try lowering the chords a bit or play the highest note in the chord with the right hand. Here's what I mean, but you can experiment with it more and see what sounds best:

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/108749630/Arrangements/Requests/jokingmotivechords.png)

you have a very good point, i've done some octave adjustments to that section

Quote-Finally, change the dotted half rest in m. 40 to a half rest + a quarter rest.

I don't know that that's actually technically musically incorrect - a dotted half note can obviously cross the "mid-measure bar line", so theoretically a dotted half rest should be able to, but idk - but changed it anyway, it does look nicer that way.

QuoteHopefully someone with a bit more experience will stop on by to review your sheet, but I'm really liking it so far!

I HOPE SO TOO THANK YOU FOR THE COMMENTS.

Anyway I've incorporated all the changes - I'm pretty sure this version is objectively better than the original so I've replaced it. But if anyone wants comparison, here are the ORIGINAL update files:

MUS (http://https://www.dropbox.com/s/3rfynvk6jwvam4r/Joking%20Motive%20original.mus?dl=0) / MID (http://https://www.dropbox.com/s/z4umpnszvg45oti/Joking%20Motive%20original.mid?dl=0) / PDF (https://www.dropbox.com/s/h3234nzuhgtqabu/Joking%20Motive%20original.pdf?dl=0)

list of differences, for comparison's sake
Original squished for 4 pages, new one 5 pages

Fixed some formatting issues (accidentally put copyright symbol as @ in original; title missing)

LH for the vast majority of the piece (excepting 1st 3 measures and repetitions thereof; m. 40; m. 45-47) raised up an octave from original to new version

Glissando added in m. 56. The melody is moved to the LH, which plays the lower bass (its octaves moved around a bit for playability reasons; the original had ascending AA - BB - CC - EE starting on the first space A).

Chords in m. 41-44 lowered an octave to help with playability. This is after the octave raise they got from the earlier point, so the chords are in the same octave as the original but the single notes are up an octave; everything's closer together as a result.

Chord in m. 25-26 (and its recurrence at 61-62) changed from F to Fmaj7. Chord in 27 (and the first beat of 28; and its recurrence at 63) changed from the current vacillation between Emin and Emaj to a vacillation between Emin7 and E7. This may be incorrect.

All musical and formatting issues listed in the OP, except for the mention of wanting to incorporate the m. 56 gliss, are still present in the current version.
[close]

I wonder if this huge amount of complexity isn't part of the reason it hasn't been accepted or really looked at yet...
Title: Re: [NDS] Ace Attorney Investigations: Miles Edgeworth 2 - "Raymond Shields ~ Joking Motive" by Alti
Post by: Onionleaf on January 13, 2016, 01:02:28 AM
Quote from: Altissimo on January 09, 2016, 06:24:12 PMI FOUND A WAY TO PUT IT IN IT DOESN'T SOUND TERRIFIC BUT IT WORKS OK

^5's! I have no idea how to make it sound neater, but that's a good start!

Quote from: Altissimo on January 09, 2016, 06:24:12 PMWhat I've left out is pretty deliberate... I really don't want to compromise the feel of the trumpet line by messing around with its octave too much but most of the time it's not really playable alongside the melody. Plus, this way the piece retains a pretty consistent singular melody feel, which I like. If others think the extra trumpet lines would enhance it though I'll probably go ahead and see if I can add them in. But I just don't think it's right to mess with the octaves of the melody or countermelody, it screws up the feel D:

Fair point! I just thought if that voice has already been added in one measure, it could be added somewhere else as well. However, it also sounds really good as it is atm.

Quote from: Altissimo on January 09, 2016, 06:24:12 PMI wonder if this huge amount of complexity isn't part of the reason it hasn't been accepted or really looked at yet...

There are a lot of things that need to be double-checked, and with a 5-page-long arrangement such as this one, I'm guessing it would take some time to go through the process. You'll get there, don't worry!
Title: Re: [NDS] Ace Attorney Investigations: Miles Edgeworth 2 - "Raymond Shields ~ Joking Motive" by Alti
Post by: Altissimo on January 16, 2016, 04:44:24 AM
Made two tiny edits - glissando should (should) now play down a scale that has 1 sharp to match the A blues type scale, and also for some reason an E-flat in m. 64 was written as a D# so i changed it

small edits i know but i want to be thorough in my documentation lmao
Title: Re: [NDS] Ace Attorney Investigations: Miles Edgeworth 2 - "Raymond Shields ~ Joking Motive" by Alti
Post by: Bespinben on January 21, 2016, 03:08:01 PM
So, I'm going to accept this. Is this your final answer?
Title: Re: [NDS] Ace Attorney Investigations: Miles Edgeworth 2 - "Raymond Shields ~ Joking Motive" by Alti
Post by: Altissimo on January 21, 2016, 03:16:33 PM
The only thing I would be worried about are the two "formatting" issues I listed in the OP.
Title: Re: [NDS] Ace Attorney Investigations: Miles Edgeworth 2 - "Raymond Shields ~ Joking Motive" by Alti
Post by: Bespinben on January 21, 2016, 03:19:34 PM
We'll figure that nomenclature out sometime ;) You done good.
Title: Re: [NDS] Ace Attorney Investigations: Miles Edgeworth 2 - "Raymond Shields ~ Joking Motive" by Altissim
Post by: Zeta on January 21, 2016, 03:20:04 PM
This submission has been accepted by Bespinben (http://forum.ninsheetmusic.org/index.php?action=profile;u=2510).

~Zeta, your friendly NSM-Bot