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Author Topic: [SWITCH] Fire Emblem: Three Houses - "Fódlan Winds (Rain)" by Libera  (Read 223 times)

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Submission Information:

Series: Fire Emblem
Game: Fire Emblem: Three Houses
Console: Nintendo Switch
Title: Fódlan Winds (Rain)
Instrumentation Solo Piano
Arranger: Libera
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 04:21:16 PM by Libera »
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It begins.

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Static

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Looks really nice! Those rhythms are really interesting...
  • Page subtitles still have "Rain" instead of "Thunder".
  • m25-28 LH: While I don't necessarily disagree with the cross-bar beaming, I think it looks out of place in this sheet since you never use it anywhere else that could also use it. Personally, I would just keep everything as normal 4/4 beaming like the rest of the sheet, and use phrase markings/accents (like you already do throughout the sheet) to mark syncopated sections.
  • m35-46, 83-94 LH: There are bunch of measures with 2 8th rests on beat 4 instead of a quarter rest.
  • m59-66 LH: There are some bass notes in the original that play here that don't line up with the percussion hits (like the Bb on beat 3 of m60, 64, etc.). Maybe these could be represented with a single unaccented note? Or if you'd rather leave this section more sparse that's OK too.
  • m60 RH Layer 2: I hear the Bb and Ab on beat 3-3.5 as a single Ab quarter note on beat 3.
  • m98: A 8va marking is trying to sneak in up here.

Libera

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Looks really nice! Those rhythms are really interesting...

Thanks, and yeah the syncopation in this is quite something. 

All of your points were great and have been fixed, hopefully.  Thanks for checking!

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Re: [SWITCH] Fire Emblem: Three Houses - "Fódlan Winds (Rain)" by Libera
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2019, 05:13:33 PM »

I've updated the files again now that I know with 100% certainty that the correct naming convention is that the map themes are 'Rain' and the battle themes are 'Thunder' and that the wiki and lots of people on the internet at the moment are currently wrong.  I guess I should have trusted my original impression more.

(I also fixed some rhythm groupings that Static pointed out to me on discord.)

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Re: [SWITCH] Fire Emblem: Three Houses - "Fódlan Winds (Rain)" by Libera
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2019, 05:18:40 PM »

Everything looks great! Glad you could find the correct title. I feel like its pretty important that we have that since it seems no one else does lol. I approve.

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Re: [SWITCH] Fire Emblem: Three Houses - "Fódlan Winds (Rain)" by Libera
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2019, 11:23:18 PM »

To be perfectly honest, I feel like the arrangement is a bit too empty compared to the original track. The thing about the original is that there's always some constantly moving eighth-note line that keeps driving the theme forward, along with the full, blaring sound of the melodies and percussion. I don't think the piano captures it too well as it stands right now, particularly in sections like m7-21 where it's a single-line melody with occasional plunks from the LH—the driving force of the track is sorely lacking there, especially since the opening RH pattern is gone. Of course, two hands can only do so many things, but I think that incorporating extra notes into the left hand would help to keep it moving forward.

Overall, I think that a lot of the arrangement is missing the presence of a strong bassline that would help to give the arrangement some of that momentum, mainly anywhere where the bass has a lot of rests between notes (e.g. m1-24, m35-46, m75-94). To me, it always feels kind of empty when the left hand keeps cutting out every other beat. I recognize that there isn't a clear bassline to transcribe from the original, but I feel like some sort of improvised pattern—whether it simply be a low note repeated consecutively in eighths, or a pattern that imitates RH m1-8—would do wonders for this sheet.

I also think that adding some additional harmonies to the melody in the climactic chorus (e.g. m34, m36, m38, etc.) would work much better as well, since the piano has a hard time replicating something so grand otherwise.

Parts like m25-30 and the ending section work beautifully on piano, but by virtue of how the track is orchestrated, the other parts don't work nearly as intuitively on piano. That's why I personally believe that this one could use some more experimentation and additions to be as good as it can possibly be before it's finished. Perhaps you've already tested this out and it didn't work out as well as I'm imagining right now, so don't hesitate to say if you feel otherwise.
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there's also a huge difference in quality between 2000 songs and 2010 songs
The difference between 2000 songs and 2010 songs is 10 songs.

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Re: [SWITCH] Fire Emblem: Three Houses - "Fódlan Winds (Rain)" by Libera
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2019, 04:55:05 PM »

Thanks for having a look and giving your opinion!  Let me see if I can address some of the things that you've said:

To be perfectly honest, I feel like the arrangement is a bit too empty compared to the original track. The thing about the original is that there's always some constantly moving eighth-note line that keeps driving the theme forward, along with the full, blaring sound of the melodies and percussion. I don't think the piano captures it too well as it stands right now, particularly in sections like m7-21 where it's a single-line melody with occasional plunks from the LH—the driving force of the track is sorely lacking there, especially since the opening RH pattern is gone. Of course, two hands can only do so many things, but I think that incorporating extra notes into the left hand would help to keep it moving forward.

Overall, I think that a lot of the arrangement is missing the presence of a strong bassline that would help to give the arrangement some of that momentum, mainly anywhere where the bass has a lot of rests between notes (e.g. m1-24, m35-46, m75-94). To me, it always feels kind of empty when the left hand keeps cutting out every other beat. I recognize that there isn't a clear bassline to transcribe from the original, but I feel like some sort of improvised pattern—whether it simply be a low note repeated consecutively in eighths, or a pattern that imitates RH m1-8—would do wonders for this sheet.

The first thing that I should probably ask is, have you tried playing this sheet on the piano?  I'm normally pretty terrible at piano so I just try my best to imagine bits I've written down, whereas this one I've actually played most of it at the piano and I don't find it to be empty really.  I understand that from the sheet it can look that way (there are an awful lot of rests in the left hand) but if you actually think about what your hands are doing the left hand is constantly moving up and down the keyboard to get out the loud percussive power chords and then up to the more delicate string notes.  To put in a constant quaver accompaniment pattern would do two things, firstly it would remove the ability to change registers since the hand wouldn't have the time anymore, and secondly it would remove a large part of the syncopation from the sheet.  I honestly think that the piece gets its energy from the syncopation, and not from the constant quavers and while you could bring back the syncopation somewhat with articulations, it's always going to be much less clear with other stuff muddying it up.  As a secondary point, I really try my best to stick with the original as much as I can, and as you say there isn't really any bassline of the sort you're thinking of in the original.  Bringing the quaver ostinato down to the left hand is something you could do but once again I think you get a much more light, delicate and syncopated sound from keeping it to the string notes I've put in.

I also think that adding some additional harmonies to the melody in the climactic chorus (e.g. m34, m36, m38, etc.) would work much better as well, since the piano has a hard time replicating something so grand otherwise.

One of the things about how I've written the right hand in the 'chorus' is that it fits under your hand extremely nicely.  Adding in extra harmonies in the parts you've suggested would break that, which I'd probably be ok with if I felt that the sound needed to be bigger, but when I've been playing it I've found it works totally fine.  In fact, I've really enjoyed playing the chorus as I've found the sound you get to be very satisfying.  Another thing is that there aren't any harmonies in bar 34, so the only way to make the sound bigger would be to make it into octaves, which would ruin the change to octaves in bar 46.

In conclusion, (and I spent an hour or so at the piano messing around in response to your post) I respect your opinion but I disagree with your criticisms.  Though if you want to elaborate or someone else wants to give their thoughts then I'm totally up for that as well.

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Re: [SWITCH] Fire Emblem: Three Houses - "Fódlan Winds (Rain)" by Libera
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2019, 12:57:33 PM »

I've made some edits to the files from looking at it a little more.  Namely I added some more bass that I'd missed out in the 51-66 section, distributed the notes in bar 82 a little more clearly and modified a few dynamics.

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Re: [SWITCH] Fire Emblem: Three Houses - "Fódlan Winds (Rain)" by Libera
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2019, 04:02:08 AM »

Couple of quick thoughts for the night:

Upon looking at it earlier I was inclined to agree with a lot of what MSF had to say. I do think it would be worth it to consider the accompaniment patterns in certain places a bit more, but I do now think that it works better than it appears. This is because pedaling can take the left hand a long way, and the fact that it's written in double time makes it look like there's a lot less going on, which brings me to my second point...

The sheet looks far emptier than it actually is because of how spaced out it is. I agree with the use of cut time here, but visually everything is very stretched out making it harder to make sense of where parts start and end. There's nowhere that's dense enough to warrant 3 measures per system, so you can easily use a 4-measure hypermeter in most places and cut down on a page while doing so. Here's a distribution I recommend.

Will be back this weekend to give the notes and other aspects of the presentation a closer look!

(Oh, and I really don't think the 16th notes in m. 25 should be written in as part of the melody)
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 04:03:41 AM by Latios212 »
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Re: [SWITCH] Fire Emblem: Three Houses - "Fódlan Winds (Rain)" by Libera
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2019, 07:04:40 PM »

Looking at the rest now, so in addition to the above:
- In m. 22-23 there's a bit of a piano riff in the original similar to before; is there a reason we return to the ostinato here instead of using that?
- I actually disagree with Static and I think it would be really nice if the LH parts in m. 25-26 and 27-28 were beamed across the barline. I don't think it's really out of place because there aren't any other similar places in the sheet that would warrant it (besides the ostinato which is fine without because it uses a heavily syncopated rhythm anyway).
- Somewhere from m. 31-33, I think it may help the buildup a bit if the D flats were octave doubled before the tremolo kicks in.
- The notes in m. 34 are oddly spaced a bit.
- I think m. 34 and similar ones are too empty in the right hand, and would be better off as octaves (or something) - the single notes stand out against the harmonies in the measures surrounding them. (Same for later in m. 84+)
- Courtesy flat on the top Bb in m. 40? (88 as well)
- In m. 56 I'm hearing the positions of the first two melody notes (Eb, G) switched?
- In the chord at the end of m. 56 I'd suggest changing the G to a Bb since the chord is followed immediately by a G in the ostinato.
- The chord in m. 78 sounds pretty muddy, much more so than the ones around it. Any chance we could modify it a bit?
- Is the bass C in 99 an addition of yours? It doesn't sound like the original plays any low notes after the descent in the previous measure.
- Chord between m. 100-101 sounds like it should be inverted down once, I think. Also it's horizontally misplaced and the ties all bend downwards.
- The half note C in m. 103 should be an octave lower. Also not sure the cross-staff line really serves much of a purpose here.
- I also think the chord in m. 104-105 should be an inversion lower.

This is a tough piece, and you did a really good job making a workable solo piano arrangement out of it. Kudos!
« Last Edit: August 18, 2019, 07:07:28 PM by Latios212 »
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Re: [SWITCH] Fire Emblem: Three Houses - "Fódlan Winds (Rain)" by Libera
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2019, 11:37:26 PM »

Thanks for checking!  There's been quite a bit said so I'll just focus on stuff that I haven't changed or needs more of a response; everything else should be fixed.

The sheet looks far emptier than it actually is because of how spaced out it is. I agree with the use of cut time here, but visually everything is very stretched out making it harder to make sense of where parts start and end. There's nowhere that's dense enough to warrant 3 measures per system, so you can easily use a 4-measure hypermeter in most places and cut down on a page while doing so. Here's a distribution I recommend.

Every time I took the main section to 4 bars per system it looked way too cramped for me.  It makes it hard for me to read the syncopations with everything close together like that, and that's why I went to three bars per system for those sections.  Also you can't really lose a page because as you might notice your last page is really short on space with the 8vas and the low octaves (in fact they're overlapping a lot), which is why my final page only has five systems on it rather than six like the rest.

(Oh, and I really don't think the 16th notes in m. 25 should be written in as part of the melody)

You mean have them as grace notes?  If so, done.

Looking at the rest now, so in addition to the above:
- In m. 22-23 there's a bit of a piano riff in the original similar to before; is there a reason we return to the ostinato here instead of using that?

Mostly because it's so low in the mix I can barely hear the notes and rhythms that are being played and so I didn't think it was worth it (or even possible) to include.  If you really think it's worthwhile I can have another go at transcribing it, but it seems pretty hard to understand where it even starts and ends.  Then again, maybe that's just me being terrible.

- I actually disagree with Static and I think it would be really nice if the LH parts in m. 25-26 and 27-28 were beamed across the barline. I don't think it's really out of place because there aren't any other similar places in the sheet that would warrant it (besides the ostinato which is fine without because it uses a heavily syncopated rhythm anyway).

Hmm, ok.  That is why I had them originally. I've put them back in, but Static if you want to make your case again then I'm open to a discussion about this.

- Somewhere from m. 31-33, I think it may help the buildup a bit if the D flats were octave doubled before the tremolo kicks in.

Personally I find it quite awkward to repeat the octaves as quavers in 33, which would either mean dropping down to single notes at that point which kind of ruins the build up or making it more awkward.  I don't really think it needs the octaves there personally so I just left them as single notes.

- I think m. 34 and similar ones are too empty in the right hand, and would be better off as octaves (or something) - the single notes stand out against the harmonies in the measures surrounding them. (Same for later in m. 84+)

I've talked about this before, but I still really don't think this is a wise or necessary change.  It sounds perfectly fine to me as single notes and anything more ruins the change to octaves in bar  46.

- The chord in m. 78 sounds pretty muddy, much more so than the ones around it. Any chance we could modify it a bit?

The important change is the added Bb, so I removed the Eb.  Hopefully that's alright with you?

- Is the bass C in 99 an addition of yours? It doesn't sound like the original plays any low notes after the descent in the previous measure.

Not intentionally, but yes.  I think I was hearing the end of the horn Cn there.  I've removed it anyway.

This is a tough piece, and you did a really good job making a workable solo piano arrangement out of it. Kudos!

Thanks, and thanks for helping make it even better!

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Re: [SWITCH] Fire Emblem: Three Houses - "Fódlan Winds (Rain)" by Libera
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2019, 12:14:40 AM »

The sheet looks far emptier than it actually is because of how spaced out it is. I agree with the use of cut time here, but visually everything is very stretched out making it harder to make sense of where parts start and end. There's nowhere that's dense enough to warrant 3 measures per system, so you can easily use a 4-measure hypermeter in most places and cut down on a page while doing so. Here's a distribution I recommend.
Every time I took the main section to 4 bars per system it looked way too cramped for me.  It makes it hard for me to read the syncopations with everything close together like that, and that's why I went to three bars per system for those sections.  Also you can't really lose a page because as you might notice your last page is really short on space with the 8vas and the low octaves (in fact they're overlapping a lot), which is why my final page only has five systems on it rather than six like the rest.
I disagree with 4/system making the syncopation of the left hand harder to read; the ostinato is relatively sparse and going along with the original's hypermeter makes it easier to discern the phrasing and where it repeats. If you compare how the first page looks for example going along with the hypermeter allows the performer to see that the left hand pattern repeats every 4 bars whereas 3 measures/system makes it feel somewhat like there's a new rhythm to read every measure.

(Oh, and I really don't think the 16th notes in m. 25 should be written in as part of the melody)
You mean have them as grace notes?  If so, done.
I honestly don't even pick up on these notes at all when listening to the original. But seeing as the melody is clarified now I don't have any problems.

- In m. 22-23 there's a bit of a piano riff in the original similar to before; is there a reason we return to the ostinato here instead of using that?
Mostly because it's so low in the mix I can barely hear the notes and rhythms that are being played and so I didn't think it was worth it (or even possible) to include.  If you really think it's worthwhile I can have another go at transcribing it, but it seems pretty hard to understand where it even starts and ends.  Then again, maybe that's just me being terrible.
That's fine; was just wondering.

- I think m. 34 and similar ones are too empty in the right hand, and would be better off as octaves (or something) - the single notes stand out against the harmonies in the measures surrounding them. (Same for later in m. 84+)
I've talked about this before, but I still really don't think this is a wise or necessary change.  It sounds perfectly fine to me as single notes and anything more ruins the change to octaves in bar  46.
My concern was not necessarily that a single line isn't sufficient (although I probably kind of think that) but that every measure alternates thick harmony vs. no harmony for 34-39, which I don't think translates over that well to piano. In addition even if you used octaves you'd still have the buildup of energy in m. 46+ since those octaves are notably higher. All that said, up to you.

Everything else looks good!
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 12:20:56 AM by Latios212 »
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Re: [SWITCH] Fire Emblem: Three Houses - "Fódlan Winds (Rain)" by Libera
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2019, 12:21:34 AM »

I disagree with 4/system making the syncopation of the left hand harder to read; the ostinato is relatively sparse and going along with the original's hypermeter makes it easier to discern the phrasing and where it repeats. If you compare how the first page looks for example going along with the hypermeter allows the performer to see that the left hand pattern repeats every 4 bars whereas 3 systems makes it feel somewhat like there's a new rhythm to read every measure.

I see, that makes a lot more sense now you put it like that.  I still thought it looked too squished though, so I decided to do my very rare thing of going to a 6cm staff size to alleviate that.  Also it makes it much easier to fit six systems onto the final page.

I honestly don't even pick up on these notes at all when listening to the original. But seeing as the melody is clarified now I don't have any problems.

I swear I can hear these, but if no one else can then I'll take them out.

My concern was not necessarily that a single line isn't sufficient (although I probably kind of think that) but that every measure alternates thick harmony vs. no harmony for 34-39, which I don't think translates over that well to piano. In addition even if you used octaves you'd still have the buildup of energy in m. 46+ since those octaves are notably higher. All that said, up to you.

I understand where you're coming from, but I'd prefer to keep them as is still as I personally don't have any issue with the sound in that section and the playability is much nicer that way.  Also, even if the raising of an octave still works in 46, it's certainly more striking going from a single line to octaves.  Thanks for the suggestion, though.

New files should be up!

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Re: [SWITCH] Fire Emblem: Three Houses - "Fódlan Winds (Rain)" by Libera
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2019, 12:32:38 AM »

I see, that makes a lot more sense now you put it like that.  I still thought it looked too squished though, so I decided to do my very rare thing of going to a 6cm staff size to alleviate that.  Also it makes it much easier to fit six systems onto the final page.
yessssss

Honestly it looks so much better now, at least in my opinion, with the updated distribution. Everything just seems to click... together... better. :)

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