[3DS] Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia - "The Heritors of Arcadia" by Libera

Started by Zeta, April 02, 2021, 05:42:27 PM

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Zeta

Submission Information:

Series: Fire Emblem
Game: Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia
Console: Nintendo 3DS
Title: The Heritors of Arcadia
Instrumentation Solo Piano
Arranger: Libera

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Libera

This body will rot away, scattered by the blowing wind.
Until the end of this cycle of life, I want to see it with my own eyes.



Latios212

Oh boy here we go! I like this sheet a lot; it balances the melody, harmony, and bass well without being really difficult to play. And it's nice the original has an interesting bass part.

First things first, I'm taking one pass at the vocal melody and then switching over to the instrumental version to hear everything else easier. To my knowledge this is the instrumental version from the OST and should match the full version precisely but let me know if that's not the case.

Melody:
- There are a couple of places where the melody overlaps a notehead in the lower layer, and there's an augmentation dot that's only supposed to apply to the lower layer. I think m. 11 is okay but 45 looks a bit odd. Maybe remove the G# from layer 2 and separate the two layers horizontally slightly to keep the G# melody quarter note more conspicuous.
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- There's an extra D# on beat 1 of m. 19, 23, 51 and 55 in layer 1 that shouldn't be there
- m. 50 beat 6 ("just") is missing, should be C#
- m. 90 beat 6 ("when") should be E instead of G
- m. 91 beat 6 ("and") is missing, should be G

Now, starting on the rest of the sheet (or as far as I'm going to get before dinner)...
- Spacing is off at the beginning of m. 9
- Thoughts about not writing in the D# in m. 10 beat 3 RH? When playing it could easily be mistaken for a melody note.
- The second 16th note in the right hand of m. 21/53 - I've never heard that when listening casually to the original and I think if it is there it's much quieter than the rest of the voice. It also distracts from the melody (makes it sound like it's ascending from the E) and makes the figure a bit more awkward to play. I think it would be best to not write it in.
  - I'm inclined to say the same thing about the end section as well, but I see 87/95 are taken from the violins instead. I guess I hear the E in 91 but not so much the F in 99 - though stylistically I think it still makes sense to omit them to emphasize the melody more.
  - Similar comment about m. 25 and 57.
- Third-to-last LH note in m. 19/23 sound like F# rather than E.

That's as far as I got checking so far (to m. 25), but a few other things as I skim the rest of it:
- The rest is rather close to the first chord in m. 40
- Slur on grace note in m. 71 LH looks like it was accidentally hidden
- Could we change keys to Dm at 66 instead of 75? Measure 66 is a D chord and this section finds itself fully transitioned to Dm before it's over - 70+ fits perfectly in D minor and would avoid a lot of accidentals (some of which are currently causing placement issues between the two layers).
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Quote from: Dudeman on February 22, 2016, 10:16:37 AM
who needs education when you can have WAIFUS!!!!!

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Libera

Thanks for having a look.  I've uploaded some new files, but bear in mind that there are a lot of changes I haven't made yet while I think about them some more.

Quote from: Latios212 on April 13, 2021, 06:20:13 PM- There's an extra D# on beat 1 of m. 19, 23, 51 and 55 in layer 1 that shouldn't be there
- m. 50 beat 6 ("just") is missing, should be C#
- m. 90 beat 6 ("when") should be E instead of G
- m. 91 beat 6 ("and") is missing, should be G
- Spacing is off at the beginning of m. 9
- The rest is rather close to the first chord in m. 40
- Slur on grace note in m. 71 LH looks like it was accidentally hidden

These are all fixed (or should be fixed).  Very nice spot on the D#s in 19 etc.  I think they're holdovers from when I wrote that section out in one layer and then accidentally didn't revert.

Quote from: Latios212 on April 13, 2021, 06:20:13 PM- Could we change keys to Dm at 66 instead of 75? Measure 66 is a D chord and this section finds itself fully transitioned to Dm before it's over - 70+ fits perfectly in D minor and would avoid a lot of accidentals (some of which are currently causing placement issues between the two layers).

Although initially unsure, I'm inclined to agree with you here.  I originally didn't like writing a section that started on D9 in Dm and it didn't feel worthwhile adding a separate key change for this section, but on a second look I think it makes more sense this way.  Although I have now put the key change at 58 rather than 66 (if you look at the chords in 58-66 it's pretty much the exact same thing).

Quote from: Latios212 on April 13, 2021, 06:20:13 PM- Third-to-last LH note in m. 19/23 sound like F# rather than E.

I just had another few listens.  I'm pretty sure it goes to an E in 19 (although I can hear an F# somewhere).  In 23 I'm less certain (I can hear different things based on the octave) and I think again it may just be confused by an F# in a different part (louder in 23).  I've left this as is for now but I'm happy to have another look at it later.

Quote from: Latios212 on April 13, 2021, 06:20:13 PM- Thoughts about not writing in the D# in m. 10 beat 3 RH? When playing it could easily be mistaken for a melody note.

Currently unsure.  I think you still have potential for confusion even if we drop the D# (one might think the melody drops down to a B on beat 3) and we lose some harmony this way.  I could move the D# down an octave but I think that is a bit too muddy of a sound.  My normal course here is to not lie/confuse the reader so that they have the information that they need to get the correct voicings across to the listener, which is what I've done here.

Quote from: Latios212 on April 13, 2021, 06:20:13 PMThere are a couple of places where the melody overlaps a notehead in the lower layer, and there's an augmentation dot that's only supposed to apply to the lower layer. I think m. 11 is okay but 45 looks a bit odd. Maybe remove the G# from layer 2 and separate the two layers horizontally slightly to keep the G# melody quarter note more conspicuous.
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This is a good point and I now see the issue.  I don't think the way I currently have it written conveys exactly what I want it to, and although yours is clearer, it doesn't really follow what I wanted either.  I'll give this another think and sacrifices may have to be made.

Quote from: Latios212 on April 13, 2021, 06:20:13 PM- The second 16th note in the right hand of m. 21/53 - I've never heard that when listening casually to the original and I think if it is there it's much quieter than the rest of the voice. It also distracts from the melody (makes it sound like it's ascending from the E) and makes the figure a bit more awkward to play. I think it would be best to not write it in.
  - I'm inclined to say the same thing about the end section as well, but I see 87/95 are taken from the violins instead. I guess I hear the E in 91 but not so much the F in 99 - though stylistically I think it still makes sense to omit them to emphasize the melody more.
  - Similar comment about m. 25 and 57.

These are basically all the same comment.  At the moment I'm not really in favour of getting rid of these notes because 1) This is how I've always heard it, although admittedly its difficult for me to go back to being a 'casual listener' after having listened to this piece so many times; and 2) I think this way the phrases have more energy, even if they are a little harder to play.  That said, I'll think about this some more.  (Note: the F in 87 comes from the strings.)



Sorry that this response is a bit unfinished (things I'm still thinking about), but you're not done checking the sheet yet so I think it's fine.

Latios212

Quote from: Latios212 on April 13, 2021, 06:20:13 PM- Could we change keys to Dm at 66 instead of 75? Measure 66 is a D chord and this section finds itself fully transitioned to Dm before it's over - 70+ fits perfectly in D minor and would avoid a lot of accidentals (some of which are currently causing placement issues between the two layers).
Quote from: Libera on April 14, 2021, 03:48:04 AMAlthough initially unsure, I'm inclined to agree with you here.  I originally didn't like writing a section that started on D9 in Dm and it didn't feel worthwhile adding a separate key change for this section, but on a second look I think it makes more sense this way.  Although I have now put the key change at 58 rather than 66 (if you look at the chords in 58-66 it's pretty much the exact same thing).
Oh yeah that makes even more sense lol. Looks good!

Quote from: Latios212 on April 13, 2021, 06:20:13 PM- There are a couple of places where the melody overlaps a notehead in the lower layer, and there's an augmentation dot that's only supposed to apply to the lower layer. I think m. 11 is okay but 45 looks a bit odd. Maybe remove the G# from layer 2 and separate the two layers horizontally slightly to keep the G# melody quarter note more conspicuous.
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Quote from: Libera on April 14, 2021, 03:48:04 AMThis is a good point and I now see the issue.  I don't think the way I currently have it written conveys exactly what I want it to, and although yours is clearer, it doesn't really follow what I wanted either.  I'll give this another think and sacrifices may have to be made.
Ah, you want the G# re-struck I presume? Maybe writing a rest in the melody instead of tying over the note would help make it look less ambiguous.

Quote from: Latios212 on April 13, 2021, 06:20:13 PM- The second 16th note in the right hand of m. 21/53 - I've never heard that when listening casually to the original and I think if it is there it's much quieter than the rest of the voice. It also distracts from the melody (makes it sound like it's ascending from the E) and makes the figure a bit more awkward to play. I think it would be best to not write it in.
  - I'm inclined to say the same thing about the end section as well, but I see 87/95 are taken from the violins instead. I guess I hear the E in 91 but not so much the F in 99 - though stylistically I think it still makes sense to omit them to emphasize the melody more.
  - Similar comment about m. 25 and 57.
Quote from: Libera on April 14, 2021, 03:48:04 AMThese are basically all the same comment.  At the moment I'm not really in favour of getting rid of these notes because 1) This is how I've always heard it, although admittedly its difficult for me to go back to being a 'casual listener' after having listened to this piece so many times; and 2) I think this way the phrases have more energy, even if they are a little harder to play.  That said, I'll think about this some more.  (Note: the F in 87 comes from the strings.)
Yeah, I've always heard it the way I'm suggesting throughout the many times I've listened to it (though perhaps not as many times as you). Up to you and others can weigh in but I stick with my suggestion largely because the melody is clearer without those notes.

Quote from: Libera on April 14, 2021, 03:48:04 AMSorry that this response is a bit unfinished (things I'm still thinking about), but you're not done checking the sheet yet so I think it's fine.
Yeah no worries! I'll come back to check the rest later, but just wanted to respond to a few of these things now as well. The stuff I haven't commented on from above I think is fine for now.
My arrangements and YouTube channel!

Quote from: Dudeman on February 22, 2016, 10:16:37 AM
who needs education when you can have WAIFUS!!!!!

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Static

Wow there's a lot going on here, but most of it looks really good.
  • m19/23 LH should look like m51/55 - the D#-E in the middle should be an octave lower.
  • The dyads in m26-27 and 30-31 RH sound like they should have both G# and F# (i.e. just the top note changes between C# and B)
  • m38 LH sounds like it drops an octave after the last note (same rhythm as m39).
  • m43 LH sounds like it should have two 16ths at the start instead of an 8th.
  • m44 LH is missing a note in the 2nd half of the measure (should be 16th rest-16th-8th-8th).
  • m45 RH: Why not just flip the tie? I know it would go through the 2nd layer but it looks a lot less weird. The way you have it looks more like a slur than a tie.
  • m48 LH beat 6 (the second half of that 8th note) should be another 16th note (C# below the staff).
  • m57 LH should have another 8th note at the end (C# below the staff) instead of just a quarter note.
  • m62 LH: The dotted quarter sounds like it should be a chord too like m58-61.
  • You might want to double-check m72 LH; I'm hearing something completely different.
  • The quarter note in m97 RH Layer 2 could be moved to the left just a bit so it lines up with the Layer 1 and the LH more.

Libera

Files updated.  Thanks for the help guys.

Quote from: Latios212 on April 14, 2021, 05:20:38 PMAh, you want the G# re-struck I presume? Maybe writing a rest in the melody instead of tying over the note would help make it look less ambiguous.

We talked about this over discord and seemed to come to a solution.

Quote from: Static on April 17, 2021, 01:35:51 PM
  • m19/23 LH should look like m51/55 - the D#-E in the middle should be an octave lower.
  • m38 LH sounds like it drops an octave after the last note (same rhythm as m39).
  • m44 LH is missing a note in the 2nd half of the measure (should be 16th rest-16th-8th-8th).
  • m45 RH: Why not just flip the tie? I know it would go through the 2nd layer but it looks a lot less weird. The way you have it looks more like a slur than a tie.
  • m48 LH beat 6 (the second half of that 8th note) should be another 16th note (C# below the staff).
  • m57 LH should have another 8th note at the end (C# below the staff) instead of just a quarter note.
  • m62 LH: The dotted quarter sounds like it should be a chord too like m58-61.
  • You might want to double-check m72 LH; I'm hearing something completely different.
  • The quarter note in m97 RH Layer 2 could be moved to the left just a bit so it lines up with the Layer 1 and the LH more.

All of this should be fixed now!  Thanks for the help.

Quote from: Static on April 17, 2021, 01:35:51 PM
  • The dyads in m26-27 and 30-31 RH sound like they should have both G# and F# (i.e. just the top note changes between C# and B)

I'm not a huge fan of this for two reasons.  1. I don't hear the F# on beat 1 of those bars, and 2. I want to emphasise the choir/voices coming in on beat 2 of these bars with the change of harmony.

Quote from: Static on April 17, 2021, 01:35:51 PM
  • m43 LH sounds like it should have two 16ths at the start instead of an 8th.

I didn't change this one either.  For one, it's not super clear to me whether that's actually a double tap or just the sound of the strings being released (if you listen to other bars sometimes you can hear something similar) but also I think it's best just to keep it consistent with the other bars for ease of reading and playing.

Static

Quote from: Libera on April 17, 2021, 03:17:10 PMI'm not a huge fan of this for two reasons.  1. I don't hear the F# on beat 1 of those bars, and 2. I want to emphasise the choir/voices coming in on beat 2 of these bars with the change of harmony.

I didn't change this one either.  For one, it's not super clear to me whether that's actually a double tap or just the sound of the strings being released (if you listen to other bars sometimes you can hear something similar) but also I think it's best just to keep it consistent with the other bars for ease of reading and playing.
These things make sense to me, and the rest looks pretty great, so I'll approve now

Latios212

My second (final?) round of feedback, just a few small things here and there:
- Something I just noticed... the ppp at the beginning is small because the notes are small.
- Thoughts about flipping the tie in m. 25/57/99 so it points downward away from the note above?
- The bass in the original at the beginning of m. 28 plays E instead of G#
- I don't really hear the B re-struck in the chord in m. 29
- The beginning of m. 32 RH sounds like it should be G#-C# just like the other places to me
- The last bass note in m. 44 sounds like D# instead of E
- I think there's a B missing in the bass of m. 45 (after the D# with the grace notes)
- The last couple of bass notes in m. 46 sound an octave down from where they are now. Did you raise them?
- The second to last bass note in m. 73 sounds like A instead of D
- Overlapping notes on beat 1 of 85/89 I assume are not intentional?
- The chord in m. 106 - I hear C on top here. So bottom to top, A-E-F-G-C. (Man, I love these chords at the end.)
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Quote from: Dudeman on February 22, 2016, 10:16:37 AM
who needs education when you can have WAIFUS!!!!!

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Libera

Quote from: Latios212 on April 17, 2021, 07:56:45 PM- Something I just noticed... the ppp at the beginning is small because the notes are small.

Oh damn I thought I'd already fixed this.  Nice spot.

Quote from: Latios212 on April 17, 2021, 07:56:45 PM- Thoughts about flipping the tie in m. 25/57/99 so it points downward away from the note above?

Yeah I agree this looks better.  Although something was really off with those ties, I had to delete the notes and reinput the ties because if I tried to flip them before they went really wrong for some reason.

Quote from: Latios212 on April 17, 2021, 07:56:45 PM- The bass in the original at the beginning of m. 28 plays E instead of G#
- I don't really hear the B re-struck in the chord in m. 29
- The last bass note in m. 44 sounds like D# instead of E
- The last couple of bass notes in m. 46 sound an octave down from where they are now. Did you raise them?
- Overlapping notes on beat 1 of 85/89 I assume are not intentional?
- The chord in m. 106 - I hear C on top here. So bottom to top, A-E-F-G-C. (Man, I love these chords at the end.)

All these should be fixed now.  Thanks!

Quote from: Latios212 on April 17, 2021, 07:56:45 PM- The beginning of m. 32 RH sounds like it should be G#-C# just like the other places to me

Hmm I definitely hear the major second interval with the B below, but I've added back in the G# as well.

Quote from: Latios212 on April 17, 2021, 07:56:45 PM- I think there's a B missing in the bass of m. 45 (after the D# with the grace notes)

I agree that a note is missing but it sounds like a C# to me.

Quote from: Latios212 on April 17, 2021, 07:56:45 PM- The second to last bass note in m. 73 sounds like A instead of D

I can hear both now so I'm not really sure.  Maybe some other part is confusing me...

New files are up.  Thanks for having another look!

Latios212

Quote from: Latios212 on April 17, 2021, 07:56:45 PM- The beginning of m. 32 RH sounds like it should be G#-C# just like the other places to me
Quote from: Libera on April 18, 2021, 02:54:04 AMHmm I definitely hear the major second interval with the B below, but I've added back in the G# as well.
Hm listening again I think I hear a B an octave below so I suppose it's fine here... it just sounds a bit denser than the original. Up to you I suppose.

Quote from: Latios212 on April 17, 2021, 07:56:45 PM- I think there's a B missing in the bass of m. 45 (after the D# with the grace notes)
Quote from: Libera on April 18, 2021, 02:54:04 AMI agree that a note is missing but it sounds like a C# to me.
Ah, yep.

Quote from: Latios212 on April 17, 2021, 07:56:45 PM- The second to last bass note in m. 73 sounds like A instead of D
Quote from: Libera on April 18, 2021, 02:54:04 AMI can hear both now so I'm not really sure.  Maybe some other part is confusing me...
This one I'm pretty sure of - don't really hear the figure jump up and play D-E-D there.

Anyway I'm just about done with this one - looks awesome :) I know MSF wanted to give it a quick peek before we close on this one, so I'll accept shortly after that! A quick look at the last point would be helpful but other than that yeah I think I'm done with this one~
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Quote from: Dudeman on February 22, 2016, 10:16:37 AM
who needs education when you can have WAIFUS!!!!!

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mastersuperfan

Quote from: Latios212 on April 18, 2021, 02:24:13 PMThis one I'm pretty sure of - don't really hear the figure jump up and play D-E-D there.
Yeah, I hear this one as an A too. I do hear a low D, but I think that's a different voice.

Quick few things from me:
- Do you want to include rests for the vocal line in m16 like you do elsewhere? It is a bit unwieldy to write here, though, with the Layer 1 stems...
- In m64 RH, there's an Eb grace note before the C grace note on beat 4 that you might consider including.
- In m65, the En is doubled an octave up on beat 1, if you wanted to include that in the RH.
- In m69, I hear the guitar melody play an additional F# on beat 2 (right before the F# you already have written in). Also, to my ear the D on beat 4.5 sounds like it's held, not re-articulated on beat 5, but it's hard to make out exactly, so there's room for interpretation there.
- Ehh, I don't like the way m78 is written out... From a glance, it looks like the dotted quarter and the eighth in the second half of the measure belong to the same line. Maybe flip the dotted quarter down?
- Obligatory have-to-mention-at-least-once: I think the m81 dynamic could be moved up slightly to be better centered with the crescendo.

Looks good otherwise. Great song and great sheet!
Quote from: NocturneOfShadow on February 11, 2016, 03:00:36 PMthere's also a huge difference in quality between 2000 songs and 2010 songs
Quote from: Latios212 on February 11, 2016, 03:29:24 PMThe difference between 2000 songs and 2010 songs is 10 songs.

Static

One last thing I forgot to mention earlier...

Since that video you linked says English version, I figured there was a Japanese version and it is indeed on the OST. Since you don't have lyrics, it might be a good idea to include the extra melody notes (or mark the missing notes) that are in the other version(s) cuz sometimes the syllables are different. From the listing on VGMdB, it looks like there's an instrumental version too. Up to you I guess, idk how much that would overcomplicate your sheet, but it's something to think about.

Libera

Quote from: Latios212 on April 18, 2021, 02:24:13 PMHm listening again I think I hear a B an octave below so I suppose it's fine here... it just sounds a bit denser than the original. Up to you I suppose.

Not the octave below, it's a B a major second below the C#.  The sound is very distinctive in my opinion.
Quote from: Latios212 on April 18, 2021, 02:24:13 PMThis one I'm pretty sure of - don't really hear the figure jump up and play D-E-D there.

As I said, I can hear what you're talking about.  I just left it as is while I was thinking about it.  I had another listen and I think it's more likely the A, so I've changed it now.

Quote from: mastersuperfan on April 18, 2021, 07:45:23 PM- Do you want to include rests for the vocal line in m16 like you do elsewhere? It is a bit unwieldy to write here, though, with the Layer 1 stems...

I think you've answered your own question with this one.

Quote from: mastersuperfan on April 18, 2021, 07:45:23 PM- In m64 RH, there's an Eb grace note before the C grace note on beat 4 that you might consider including.
- In m65, the En is doubled an octave up on beat 1, if you wanted to include that in the RH.

I think that's from the little guitar strum beforehand.  There's also a Bb just before the Eb.  I wanted to leave this stuff out to keep this section lighter in contrast to the subsequent section.

Quote from: mastersuperfan on April 18, 2021, 07:45:23 PM- In m69, I hear the guitar melody play an additional F# on beat 2 (right before the F# you already have written in). Also, to my ear the D on beat 4.5 sounds like it's held, not re-articulated on beat 5, but it's hard to make out exactly, so there's room for interpretation there.

Sounds good to me.  I think it makes more sense with the D rearticulated and that's what I hear so I left it.

Quote from: mastersuperfan on April 18, 2021, 07:45:23 PM- Ehh, I don't like the way m78 is written out... From a glance, it looks like the dotted quarter and the eighth in the second half of the measure belong to the same line. Maybe flip the dotted quarter down?

I wasn't sure about this but tried it and it looks good to me.

Quote from: mastersuperfan on April 18, 2021, 07:45:23 PM- Obligatory have-to-mention-at-least-once: I think the m81 dynamic could be moved up slightly to be better centered with the crescendo.

No you really didn't but I moved it up one pip anyway.

Quote from: Static on April 18, 2021, 07:54:09 PMOne last thing I forgot to mention earlier...

Since that video you linked says English version, I figured there was a Japanese version and it is indeed on the OST. Since you don't have lyrics, it might be a good idea to include the extra melody notes (or mark the missing notes) that are in the other version(s) cuz sometimes the syllables are different. From the listing on VGMdB, it looks like there's an instrumental version too. Up to you I guess, idk how much that would overcomplicate your sheet, but it's something to think about.

Yes I'm aware of the Japanese version haha.  I think generally speaking with all of the FE stuff with dual language songs we've stuck to the English versions so far and I think that's the best course to take.  If you compare the differences in syllables I think you'll quickly see that notating the differences (not that much) doesn't really justify the visual mess we're going to introduce onto the sheet by trying to convey both.  It's bad enough in choral music where it's the sung parts are the only things on the staves.  Conveying the instrumental version would require a whole new sheet, since the right hand choices would be completely different (although actually I have a voice + piano sheet lying around so it'd be no extra effort really for me, but I don't think it needs tacking onto this sheet.  It's already long enough.)



Thanks for the feedback guys!  New files up.

Static

Quote from: Libera on April 19, 2021, 10:52:04 AMYes I'm aware of the Japanese version haha.  I think generally speaking with all of the FE stuff with dual language songs we've stuck to the English versions so far and I think that's the best course to take.  If you compare the differences in syllables I think you'll quickly see that notating the differences (not that much) doesn't really justify the visual mess we're going to introduce onto the sheet by trying to convey both.  It's bad enough in choral music where it's the sung parts are the only things on the staves.  Conveying the instrumental version would require a whole new sheet, since the right hand choices would be completely different (although actually I have a voice + piano sheet lying around so it'd be no extra effort really for me, but I don't think it needs tacking onto this sheet.  It's already long enough.)
Makes sense, you guys are the FE experts after all lol
Looks good.