[N64] Star Fox 64 - "All Clear" by Fernman

Started by Zeta, February 19, 2023, 01:33:52 PM

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Fernman

Quote from: Kricketune54 on March 31, 2023, 11:15:04 AMAlso had a couple late ideas that you can feel free to implement, I think the systems might be a little better having 3 measures on first line and 5 on the second. I also think you could have the LH do the same rhythms for part of the intro section, as there are technically two instruments playing that part.

Thanks Kriketune, I updated the post with your files. I completely missed the LH moving parallel to the RH. Thank you for pointing that out.

Latios212

Thank you both for the hard work on this one! It's looking good, although I have a few broader things to point out about the arrangement in particular before diving too deep into details.

First is the rhythm for the intro. It's mostly correct, but does not properly fit into the time signature you're using here. I think the 16th notes + tuplet imply pickups to the start of a measure. Taken in that context lining up those notes with the beginnings of measures, we can see we have two 6-beat phrases followed by a few 4-beat phrases. You could also use 6/4 or 4/4 + 2/4 instead. But I think it's a lot more sensible this way, and the chords neatly line up with 4-beat measures leading into the loop. The 16th note rhythm leading into the last chord was incorrect before.

You cannot view this attachment.

Second is the lack of any bass at all in the first half. The notes you wrote in are mostly correct, but having no low notes hurts the arrangement in two ways - you're missing the roots of the chords, and you're missing out on a heavier sound to match the original. Playing the piece as currently written has a light and empty sort of sound when compared to the original. Since the right hand is inactive when the left hand is playing chords, you can easily have the left hand play the low bass notes and have the right hand play the chords instead. I can provide specific suggestions for writing this if you need.

Lastly, while the tonality of the first half is a bit ambiguous, the main loop should definitely be written in G major (one sharp).

Let me know what you think; I can definitely help you make updates to the files due to Notepad limitations.
My arrangements and YouTube channel!

Quote from: Dudeman on February 22, 2016, 10:16:37 AM
who needs education when you can have WAIFUS!!!!!

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Fernman

Quote from: Latios212 on May 08, 2023, 03:36:39 PMFirst is the rhythm for the intro. It's mostly correct, but does not properly fit into the time signature you're using here. I think the 16th notes + tuplet imply pickups to the start of a measure. Taken in that context lining up those notes with the beginnings of measures, we can see we have two 6-beat phrases followed by a few 4-beat phrases. You could also use 6/4 or 4/4 + 2/4 instead. But I think it's a lot more sensible this way, and the chords neatly line up with 4-beat measures leading into the loop. The 16th note rhythm leading into the last chord was incorrect before.

I matched up the notation as you had shown, however I dislike the A in m4 and G in LH m7. I really dislike that clashing sound. I prefer to exclude.

Quote from: Latios212 on May 08, 2023, 03:36:39 PMSecond is the lack of any bass at all in the first half. The notes you wrote in are mostly correct, but having no low notes hurts the arrangement in two ways - you're missing the roots of the chords, and you're missing out on a heavier sound to match the original. Playing the piece as currently written has a light and empty sort of sound when compared to the original. Since the right hand is inactive when the left hand is playing chords, you can easily have the left hand play the low bass notes and have the right hand play the chords instead. I can provide specific suggestions for writing this if you need.
I rewrote it in a way that is doable, though using the 15va and 8va is my initial reaction to writing it w/o using clefs. I added a pedal mark to beat 1 so there is no gap in the sounds.

Latios212

Hey Fernman, sorry for the wait. I meant to follow up on my comments but I haven't been able to devote the time and energy to this sheet that it needs. Bloop will help follow up with the rest to help you get things polished up~
My arrangements and YouTube channel!

Quote from: Dudeman on February 22, 2016, 10:16:37 AM
who needs education when you can have WAIFUS!!!!!

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[close]
turtle

Bloop

Here's the Bloop-follow up! Some of these things may not be possible in Finale Notepad/converting from musescore, so let me know if you need any help with these ^^
-Officially, pick-up measures (m1 in this sheet) should be excluded from measure numbering. I'll use the original measure numbers for now though, so if it's possible to change measure numbers, save this for last!
-m1 (the pickup) and 3: It might look better to include the bracket of the 16th triplets, like in m1 in the R.H. This way, it's easier to distinguish between the triplet and the normal 16ths.
-m2, 4, 6 and 7: Instead of using 15ma and 8va markings in the L.H., I'd strongly suggest using the bass clef for these sections. That reads a lot easier than reading treble clef in the R.H. and then moving it down one or two octaves. For the pedal marks, you could add an optional middle pedal mark (sost. pedal) so the notes can be held throughout the chords. A normal pedal mark may even work as well, though it will sound a bit muddy.
-m2, 4 and 6: I hear another trumpet note under the L.H.: a D in m2, a G in m4, and a B in m6.
-m7 and 8: I hear a low Eb in m7 and a low F in m8. You could keep all of the harmony in the R.H.: it's G-C-D-G in both measures. In m7, I hear a D under the G's in beat 4.5 and 4.75 too.
-m8: Usually for new sections with new key signatures, it looks nice to have a double barline before the keysignature (the barline at the end of this measure).
-m9 and on: In the L.H., it might look nice to have the long low brass notes in a separate layer, like this:
You cannot view this attachment.
That way it's clearer what both voices are, and the player can than choose to simplify by playing only the bottom voice instead of both.
-m13 and 15: Is there a specific reason you didn't put in all 8ths of the trumpet voice in the L.H., like how you did in m9 and 11? In m15 beat 1.5-2.5 I can understand it, since the R.H. is playing that C already, but besides that there's nothing in the way of the R.H.
-m14: I'm not sure if the C-D second in the L.H. fits that well, since the trumpet and trombone voice are kinda in the way of each other. The D-C suspension is (sorta) there in the R.H. too, so maybe you can leave out the D in the L.H.?
-m16: The dot of the quarter note in the R.H. on beat 1 is clashing with the half note in the other layer. You could try moving it around a bit, or switch the places of the half note and the dotted quarter note (so the half note is on the left)
-m17: Did you mean to have a repeat bar at the end of the optional ending?


Fernman

Quote from: Bloop on September 02, 2023, 01:41:01 PM-Officially, pick-up measures (m1 in this sheet) should be excluded from measure numbering. I'll use the original measure numbers for now though, so if it's possible to change measure numbers, save this for last!
-m1 (the pickup) and 3: It might look better to include the bracket of the 16th triplets, like in m1 in the R.H. This way, it's easier to distinguish between the triplet and the normal 16ths.
Fixed

Quote from: Bloop on September 02, 2023, 01:41:01 PM-m2, 4, 6 and 7: Instead of using 15ma and 8va markings in the L.H., I'd strongly suggest using the bass clef for these sections. That reads a lot easier than reading treble clef in the R.H. and then moving it down one or two octaves. For the pedal marks, you could add an optional middle pedal mark (sost. pedal) so the notes can be held throughout the chords. A normal pedal mark may even work as well, though it will sound a bit muddy.

I made the change, but since I didn't want the notes so high off the bass clef staff I am alternating between treble and bass clefs, which I'm not a fan of. I find it easier to know it is a G (in the treble) and then go two octaves down and play it there, than to change to bass clef thinking and to find that note, and then back to treble. Though I'm not sure what are "standard notation practices." Did I do the sost pedal notation correctly.

Quote from: Bloop on September 02, 2023, 01:41:01 PM-m2, 4 and 6: I hear another trumpet note under the L.H.: a D in m2, a G in m4, and a B in m6.

I think I hear the D in m2, that is the Timpani, either that or I'm fooling myself because it sounds "fuller"

Quote from: Bloop on September 02, 2023, 01:41:01 PM-m7 and 8: I hear a low Eb in m7 and a low F in m8. You could keep all of the harmony in the R.H.: it's G-C-D-G in both measures. In m7, I hear a D under the G's in beat 4.5 and 4.75 too.
Added, but Since the Low notes cannot be reached with the other notes I changed it to a 2nd voice

Quote from: Bloop on September 02, 2023, 01:41:01 PM-m8: Usually for new sections with new key signatures, it looks nice to have a double barline before the keysignature (the barline at the end of this measure).
Musescore's barlines pallette for a start repeat only have what is in the arrangement. I don't know of a way to add a double barline and a repeat symbol.

Quote from: Bloop on September 02, 2023, 01:41:01 PM-m9 and on: In the L.H., it might look nice to have the long low brass notes in a separate layer, like this:
You cannot view this attachment.
That way it's clearer what both voices are, and the player can than choose to simplify by playing only the bottom voice instead of both.
OK sure, if that is how voicing works in this case.

Quote from: Bloop on September 02, 2023, 01:41:01 PM-m13 and 15: Is there a specific reason you didn't put in all 8ths of the trumpet voice in the L.H., like how you did in m9 and 11? In m15 beat 1.5-2.5 I can understand it, since the R.H. is playing that C already, but besides that there's nothing in the way of the R.H.
That was an oversight,

Quote from: Bloop on September 02, 2023, 01:41:01 PM-m14: I'm not sure if the C-D second in the L.H. fits that well, since the trumpet and trombone voice are kinda in the way of each other. The D-C suspension is (sorta) there in the R.H. too, so maybe you can leave out the D in the L.H.?

I rather leave out the C in the LH since the D sounds like a continuation of the previous measure, whereas the C does not.

Quote from: Bloop on September 02, 2023, 01:41:01 PM-m16: The dot of the quarter note in the R.H. on beat 1 is clashing with the half note in the other layer. You could try moving it around a bit, or switch the places of the half note and the dotted quarter note (so the half note is on the left)
-m17: Did you mean to have a repeat bar at the end of the optional ending?
Ok you mean they are overlapping, i played with the note properties and hopefully it turned out right, it did.
Repeat is removed

I appreciate the feedback Bloop! Thanks so much.

Bloop

Quote from: Fernman on September 02, 2023, 08:08:17 PMI made the change, but since I didn't want the notes so high off the bass clef staff I am alternating between treble and bass clefs, which I'm not a fan of. I find it easier to know it is a G (in the treble) and then go two octaves down and play it there, than to change to bass clef thinking and to find that note, and then back to treble. Though I'm not sure what are "standard notation practices."
Switching between clefs actually reads easier once you're comfortable with reading in bass clef. After some practice, it's possible to map every note from one or two ledger lines above or below the bass and treble cleff to the exact pitch on the piano: reading the G in m1 beat 2 for example, I know to play exactly the G2 on the piano. However, notated in treble clef with 15ma, at first I have to find the G4 (G above middle C), and then I have to calculate the two octaves down to find the exact note that's notated.
The usual use case is to use 8vas if the notes go very low under the bass clef, or if the notes go very high above the treble cleff. 15mas are usually only reserved if an 8va isn't clear enough, which is pretty much only when you play in the absolute highest octave of the piano.

Quote from: Fernman on September 02, 2023, 08:08:17 PMDid I do the sost pedal notation correctly.
I still see the brackets as they were before right? If you want the player to hold the notes on beat 1 for the whole of beat 1, you can keep it as is, or use any of these pedal marks:
You cannot view this attachment.You cannot view this attachment.
If you want to use the sostenuto pedal, you can write it out like this:
You cannot view this attachment.

Quote from: Fernman on September 02, 2023, 08:08:17 PMI think I hear the D in m2, that is the Timpani, either that or I'm fooling myself because it sounds "fuller"
I actually meant on beat 1 in those bars! So like this:
You cannot view this attachment.

Quote from: Fernman on September 02, 2023, 08:08:17 PMAdded, but Since the Low notes cannot be reached with the other notes I changed it to a 2nd voice
With "keep the harmony" I actually meant removing the notes you originally had in the L.H. and placing them in the R.H.:
You cannot view this attachment.

Quote from: Fernman on September 02, 2023, 08:08:17 PMMusescore's barlines pallette for a start repeat only have what is in the arrangement. I don't know of a way to add a double barline and a repeat symbol.
Here's a file with the repeat barline added, as well as some of the other pedal options included if you prefer one of those, as I don't think they are there in Notepad. I already included some other changes I took screenshots of, as well as these small things:
-Removed the abbreviated Pno. after the first system
-Spaced the staves a bit so the dynamics fit a bit nicer in-between staves.

Quote from: Fernman on September 02, 2023, 08:08:17 PMThat was an oversight
You're still missing some notes in m12 that could easily be included:
You cannot view this attachment.

Quote from: Fernman on September 02, 2023, 08:08:17 PMI rather leave out the C in the LH since the D sounds like a continuation of the previous measure, whereas the C does not.
It's true the C doesn't sound as a continuation of that trumpet line, but it's the continuation of the low bass voice. There's a noticable shift in chords on beat 1 of m13 in the original, but now it's delayed until beat 2. I'd still suggest keeping the dotted half note C, or alternatively, going back to what you had originally if you still prefer keeping the D (like this:)
You cannot view this attachment.

Some other things I noticed (not in the file I posted):
-In m10, is there a specific reason you added the staccatos in the L.H. on beat 3.5 and 4.5? I don't hear these that much different from m8 for example, and I think they're not as necessary given that the player has to lift the finger to restrike them anyway.
-In m14, the rests in the L.H. should be just one half rest. After playing around with it a bit, maybe you could actually add the C's on beat 1.5-2.5 too, it doesn't sound that bad (especially with pedal). Up to you though what you prefer ^^

Fernman

Quote from: Bloop on September 03, 2023, 02:06:11 AMI still see the brackets as they were before right? If you want the player to hold the notes on beat 1 for the whole of beat 1, you can keep it as is, or use any of these pedal marks:
You cannot view this attachment.You cannot view this attachment.
If you want to use the sostenuto pedal, you can write it out like this:
You cannot view this attachment.
the text didn't carry over from Musescore the first time, so I manually added it in Notepad

Quote from: Bloop on September 03, 2023, 02:06:11 AMI actually meant on beat 1 in those bars! So like this:
Fixed

Quote from: Bloop on September 03, 2023, 02:06:11 AMI already included some other changes I took screenshots of, as well as these small things:
-Removed the abbreviated Pno. after the first system
-Spaced the staves a bit so the dynamics fit a bit nicer in-between staves.
I worked from the Musescore file since I couldn't edit much of the document in Notepad. So this will have to be addressed at the end of all the fedback.
Somehow the barlines turned out correctly upon conversion.

Quote from: Bloop on September 03, 2023, 02:06:11 AMYou're still missing some notes in m12 that could easily be included:
You cannot view this attachment.
I hear the trumpet holding its note on beat 2, just like the Flutes in the RH. I don't hear a repeated trumpet notes in the LH, if another instrument is playing it, it is not audible or noticeable.

Quote from: Bloop on September 03, 2023, 02:06:11 AMIt's true the C doesn't sound as a continuation of that trumpet line, but it's the continuation of the low bass voice. There's a noticable shift in chords on beat 1 of m13 in the original, but now it's delayed until beat 2. I'd still suggest keeping the dotted half note C, or alternatively, going back to what you had originally if you still prefer keeping the D (like this:)
You cannot view this attachment.
I picked the C & D notes.

Quote from: Bloop on September 03, 2023, 02:06:11 AMSome other things I noticed (not in the file I posted):
-In m10, is there a specific reason you added the staccatos in the L.H. on beat 3.5 and 4.5? I don't hear these that much different from m8 for example, and I think they're not as necessary given that the player has to lift the finger to restrike them anyway.
-In m14, the rests in the L.H. should be just one half rest. After playing around with it a bit, maybe you could actually add the C's on beat 1.5-2.5 too, it doesn't sound that bad (especially with pedal). Up to you though what you prefer ^^
first one is a typo,
I added the C's just so the player has an option, i might warm up to it after a while too.

Bloop

Quote from: Fernman on September 03, 2023, 09:24:48 AMI worked from the Musescore file since I couldn't edit much of the document in Notepad. So this will have to be addressed at the end of all the fedback.
The file I posted (click here) has all the changes I mentioned implemented already, the only thing you'll have to edit in there is stuff related to notes, so you don't necessarily have to convert from musescore anymore. If you still prefer converting from musescore though, these should be fixed as well:
-m2: The two 16th notes before the 16th triplet in both hands should have their beams disconnected
-m5: The two quarter notes on beats 3-4 should be a half note in both hands.
-m14: The 8th rest on beat 1 in the L.H. should be a little bit lower, and the notes in the upper layer should be flipped upwards.

Quote from: Fernman on September 03, 2023, 09:24:48 AMI hear the trumpet holding its note on beat 2, just like the Flutes in the RH. I don't hear a repeated trumpet notes in the LH, if another instrument is playing it, it is not audible or noticeable.
I definitely hear the trumpet restriking those notes though? It's not a volume swell or vibrato, to me they all have the same attack.

Quote from: Fernman on September 03, 2023, 09:24:48 AMthe text didn't carry over from Musescore the first time, so I manually added it in Notepad
It'll probably look better to have the "Sost. ped." marking below the note you want to have pedaled, instead of before, like in the screenshot I posted.

Fernman

#24
Quote from: Bloop on September 03, 2023, 12:02:59 PMThe file I posted (click here) has all the changes I mentioned implemented already, the only thing you'll have to edit in there is stuff related to notes, so you don't necessarily have to convert from musescore anymore. If you still prefer converting from musescore though, these should be fixed as well:
-m2: The two 16th notes before the 16th triplet in both hands should have their beams disconnected
-m5: The two quarter notes on beats 3-4 should be a half note in both hands.
-m14: The 8th rest on beat 1 in the L.H. should be a little bit lower, and the notes in the upper layer should be flipped upwards.
These are fixed, I can't edit your 3 different styles of pedal marking in Notepad, so I can't work with it.

Quote from: Bloop on September 03, 2023, 12:02:59 PMI definitely hear the trumpet restriking those notes though? It's not a volume swell or vibrato, to me they all have the same attack.
It'll probably look better to have the "Sost. ped." marking below the note you want to have pedaled, instead of before, like in the screenshot I posted.

I turned up the volume and now I hear what repeated notes you are pointing out, in the song they sound the same as the prior three times in m8 and m10. Then in m12 a new trumpet overpowers these notes and becomes the focal point. I would prefer to give priority to the overpowering trumpet as this is what a player would remember from the song.

Edit: I've been thinking. Does the typical ninsheet piano player have a third pedal on their piano? If they have a high end electric or upright they might, but if they have a middle of the road upright or less, or a typical electric they may not. I certainly don't have sostenuto pedal on either my acoustic or electric. So while I followed your recommendation to use the sostenuto pedal marking, what would you think if I were to revert the pedal marking back to only being on the first note of the measure so it is accessible to those of us without the third pedal?

Bloop

Quote from: Fernman on September 03, 2023, 01:51:43 PMThese are fixed, I can't edit your 3 different styles of pedal marking in Notepad, so I can't work with it.
Ah yeah, I thought you would've been able to copy them but apparently not. In that case, I'll make sure to add the proper pedal markings in the final sheet.

Quote from: Fernman on September 03, 2023, 01:51:43 PMI turned up the volume and now I hear what repeated notes you are pointing out, in the song they sound the same as the prior three times in m8 and m10. Then in m12 a new trumpet overpowers these notes and becomes the focal point. I would prefer to give priority to the overpowering trumpet as this is what a player would remember from the song.
I can very clearly hear the trumpet being rearticulated too. Listen to how the B's in the trumpet at 0:27 sound, compared to the longer D and C in 0:30: there's a little cut-off between the four B's in 0:27, but the D and C sound long and smooth without any cut-offs. The same thing happens in m14 and 15. What I had in the file I posted is still what I hear.

Quote from: Fernman on September 03, 2023, 01:51:43 PMEdit: I've been thinking. Does the typical ninsheet piano player have a third pedal on their piano? If they have a high end electric or upright they might, but if they have a middle of the road upright or less, or a typical electric they may not. I certainly don't have sostenuto pedal on either my acoustic or electric. So while I followed your recommendation to use the sostenuto pedal marking, what would you think if I were to revert the pedal marking back to only being on the first note of the measure so it is accessible to those of us without the third pedal?
There's probably not a lot of people who have a middle sostenuto pedal (I don't either), which is why I usually prefer not requiring it either, so I agree with you on that. With the normal pedal mark you can actually extend it up to the the F major chord like this:
You cannot view this attachment.

Fernman

#26
Quote from: Bloop on December 23, 2023, 03:31:47 AMI can very clearly hear the trumpet being rearticulated too. Listen to how the B's in the trumpet at 0:27 sound, compared to the longer D and C in 0:30: there's a little cut-off between the four B's in 0:27, but the D and C sound long and smooth without any cut-offs. The same thing happens in m14 and 15. What I had in the file I posted is still what I hear.

ok, now I do hear the rearticulated trumpet in m12, though it doesn't sound as clearly articulated as measures 14 or 15. Without the music in my ear paying close attention to it (like playing on TV), it sounds like a held note. Though now that you pointed it out I can't unhear it, so I matched your suggestion.

Quote from: Bloop on December 23, 2023, 03:31:47 AMThere's probably not a lot of people who have a middle sostenuto pedal (I don't either), which is why I usually prefer not requiring it either, so I agree with you on that. With the normal pedal mark you can actually extend it up to the the F major chord like this:
You cannot view this attachment.

I used the same style pedal marking as you in Musescore, but it completely changed on conversion, either through the converter app, or notepad's interpretation. Though it is the modern pedal marking, I think they are in the right place where the player lifts right before the F chord.

Bloop

#27
Quote from: Fernman on December 25, 2023, 09:38:47 AMok, now I do hear the rearticulated trumpet in m12, though it doesn't sound as clearly articulated as measures 14 or 15. Without the music in my ear paying close attention to it (like playing on TV), it sounds like a held note. Though now that you pointed it out I can't unhear it, so I matched your suggestion.
Measure 12 looks great like this, but I still insist on m14 needing a similar treatment. The rearticulation is very clear to me, especially when it rearticulates the same note. (btw make sure to move the 8th rest at beat 1 in the L.H. down to a similar height as in m10)

Quote from: Fernman on December 25, 2023, 09:38:47 AMI used the same style pedal marking as you in Musescore, but it completely changed on conversion, either through the converter app, or notepad's interpretation. Though it is the modern pedal marking, I think they are in the right place where the player lifts right before the F chord.
I'd probably prefer that marking too haha, or at least a little bit of text saying "Ped." at the start of the pedal mark, as I rarely see pedal marks being just brackets in official sheet music. But I can add those in for you if you want in the final file! There are also some other things formatting-wise that I could edit for you, as I think some of those things aren't possible in Notepad:
-Removing the abbreviated "Pno." markings;
-Adding brackets to the triplets in the first measure (I recall them being there before, but they're all gone now?);
-Adding a double barline before the key change in m8;
-Increasing the distance between staves in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th systems, so there's a bit more room for the mf marking in m8, the beams in m9 don't clash, and the beams in m14 don't get too close to the R.H.

Fernman

Quote from: Bloop on December 27, 2023, 05:14:00 AMMeasure 12 looks great like this, but I still insist on m14 needing a similar treatment. The rearticulation is very clear to me, especially when it rearticulates the same note. (btw make sure to move the 8th rest at beat 1 in the L.H. down to a similar height as in m10)
oh yes I missed this detail. I can't get the rest in the right spot converting from musescore without a lot of trial and error

Quote from: Bloop on December 27, 2023, 05:14:00 AMI'd probably prefer that marking too haha, or at least a little bit of text saying "Ped." at the start of the pedal mark, as I rarely see pedal marks being just brackets in official sheet music. But I can add those in for you if you want in the final file! There are also some other things formatting-wise that I could edit for you, as I think some of those things aren't possible in Notepad:
-Removing the abbreviated "Pno." markings;
-Adding brackets to the triplets in the first measure (I recall them being there before, but they're all gone now?);
-Adding a double barline before the key change in m8;
-Increasing the distance between staves in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th systems, so there's a bit more room for the mf marking in m8, the beams in m9 don't clash, and the beams in m14 don't get too close to the R.H.
I remember adding the brackets in long ago, not sure why they are not there anymore... If you could take care of the formatting I would appreciate it. I'm good with adding "Ped." at the start.

Hopefully that is everything...

Bloop

Awesome! I attached the files to this post with the edits I mentioned. If you think they look good, you can upload these and I'm ready to accept!