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[Jompa]

Before I, or someone else, tells you what it is, let me ask you:
mlf, do you know the simple method of finding the key signature? Because if you just learn it you won't ever have to ask again.

[Sebastian]

well...um.....no

[mikey]

Tell us
I can't remember it...

[FireArrow]

iirc, there's two. One is to listen until you hear a note that sounds like the tonic, and then figure that out (thus finding your key.) Some random trick I found on youtube is to just hum a random note while listening to the song, and supposedly, it'll always be the tonic, dominant, and sometimes the mediant.

Personally, I just figure the song out on a piano until the key signature becomes apparent, that way I've already got a head start when I open up finale.

[Jompa]

The "tonic" is that ONE tone that is the tonal center of any song.
When listening to a song, and therefore using it as reference, anyone can find the tonal center of the song without any trouble at all - this isn't even music theory. All you have to do is to hear that one tone that it all lands on (hard to explain but you should get what I mean really).
so you've found the note; after that you have to use a pitched instrument, like a piano or a saxophone or Finale for that matter and basically "compare" to a pitched note, so you can find out what the note that you found to be the tonic is. It's like algebra where you only have twelve possibilitys, making it easy to try and fail untill you get it right.
And there you have the tonic.
Wether it is minor or major is also something to listen for, but that's not hard either, just requires a slightly experienced ear.
So if you know the tonic and the tonal "gender" (minor or major), you just connect those two together and you have the key signature right there.
It's easier than it sounds - as I tried to get into; it's barely even music theory at this point - it's better described as just natural.

One is to listen until you hear a note that sounds like the tonic, and then figure that out (thus finding your key.)

^Exactly right method.

now try it, mlf!

[Sebastian]

ok....I guess

[Yugi]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1aoq7hby7y64cj2/18.%20I%27ll%20Face%20Myself.mp3

Key/Time Sig

[mikey]

No, there's actually like a way to look at the key and figure out what it's in...  I just can't remember.  It's something like for flats take the second to last flat in the signature and for sharps the second or something...

[FierceDeity]

Haha, I'm pretty sure that's like, a level or two (or three or four) before what we're talking about here. You're talking about how to determine the key based on the number of flats out sharps in the key signature, which,  in this setting, would mean you already know everything about the key except for the explicit letter name, which, at that point, is kind of irrelevant. However, if you do want to know those two rules (or, at least, the two I'm familiar with) for determining the letter name of the key signature based on the number of sharps or flats, here they are (for major keys).

Flats: The tonic (first note of the major scale) is the second to last flatted note in the key signature (order of flats = Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb, Fb,  or the circle of fourths starting on Bb). So I guess you could also define the letter name as "a perfect fifth above the last flatted note in the key signature".

Sharps: The tonic is a half step above the last sharped note in the key signature (order of sharps: F#, C#, G#, D#, A#, E#, B#). In other words, the last sharp in the key is the seventh scale degree, or leading tone, of the scale.


As for being able to determine the key signature, I feel like at a certain level (or maybe not, I never actually started transcribing until I'd already had a decent amount of theory knowledge and ear training, so I've always kinda done this), it doesn't have to be so abstract as "hum what you think is the tonic" (although, still kinda abstract). The first thing I do when I listen to a piece is I determine what the intervals in the melody are. Then, I see how those intervals conform to a major or minor scale (i.e. where are the half steps, how are the chord tones (1, 3, 5) emphasized, and whatnot). From there, I determine the tonic, and then I already have the intervals figured out, so  once I check that note with a reference pitch, I already have the intervals sorted out, and at least the beginning of the melody/whatever line I'm working on is already finished.

...Okay, after typing that out, that sounds overly complicated. But it works for me, haha.

[Jompa]

The first thing I do when I listen to a piece is I determine what the intervals in the melody are. Then, I see how those intervals conform to a major or minor scale (i.e. where are the half steps, how are the chord tones (1, 3, 5) emphasized, and whatnot). From there, I determine the tonic, and then I already have the intervals figured out, so  once I check that note with a reference pitch, I already have the intervals sorted out, and at least the beginning of the melody/whatever line I'm working on is already finished.

But essentially, this isn't much different from whatever you were saying was too abstract.
You are definitely making it somewhat more complicated - humming the tonic is much easier than what is expected. You don't need music theory, or a very good ear to do it.

And the only thing you're doing different there seems to be to "postpone" finding the key until you have all the intervals down, but either way when arranging it's the intervals that we're listening to, right? So by finding the tonic first, which is extremely easy without reading too much into the chord notes (yes, it really is A LOT easier than it sounds), it's easier to arrange as you now have a starting point for the intervals.

A great thing about what you're saying though, is that many people aren't as comfortable with intervals in each and every key, so it's good to kinda be able to think out of lets say C major, before having to note it all down in lets say Ab major.
But doing what you're doing is great, because that way you can (more) easily play that song in any key and on any instrument and on any occasion, as long as you can hum the melody in your head.
Music wouldn't be any fun unless you could do just that!

------------
So anyways, MLF & Yugi, what's keeping ya? Those songs have extremely definable tonics - here we have provided the recipe which explains you how to find this kinda stuff in less than a minute. Musicians should know how to do this.

And learn the "circle of fifths" Nocturneofshadow! It's an important thing to know.

[Sebastian]

C Minor??

[insaneintherain]

Listen for a resolution / cadence. If the resolution feels "strong", it's most likely resolving to the home key.

[mikey]

Haha, I'm pretty sure that's like, a level or two (or three or four) before what we're talking about here. You're talking about how to determine the key based on the number of flats out sharps in the key signature, which,  in this setting, would mean you already know everything about the key except for the explicit letter name, which, at that point, is kind of irrelevant. However, if you do want to know those two rules (or, at least, the two I'm familiar with) for determining the letter name of the key signature based on the number of sharps or flats, here they are (for major keys).

Flats: The tonic (first note of the major scale) is the second to last flatted note in the key signature (order of flats = Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb, Fb,  or the circle of fourths starting on Bb). So I guess you could also define the letter name as "a perfect fifth above the last flatted note in the key signature".

Sharps: The tonic is a half step above the last sharped note in the key signature (order of sharps: F#, C#, G#, D#, A#, E#, B#). In other words, the last sharp in the key is the seventh scale degree, or leading tone, of the scale.


As for being able to determine the key signature, I feel like at a certain level (or maybe not, I never actually started transcribing until I'd already had a decent amount of theory knowledge and ear training, so I've always kinda done this), it doesn't have to be so abstract as "hum what you think is the tonic" (although, still kinda abstract). The first thing I do when I listen to a piece is I determine what the intervals in the melody are. Then, I see how those intervals conform to a major or minor scale (i.e. where are the half steps, how are the chord tones (1, 3, 5) emphasized, and whatnot). From there, I determine the tonic, and then I already have the intervals figured out, so  once I check that note with a reference pitch, I already have the intervals sorted out, and at least the beginning of the melody/whatever line I'm working on is already finished.

...Okay, after typing that out, that sounds overly complicated. But it works for me, haha.

Yeah this is what I meant!  You don't have to play through anything just look at the signature and you know.

Jompa what makes you think I don't know circle of 5ths?  I don't quite understand where you're coming from with that...

[FireArrow]

C Minor??

Yes.

@Nocturne, we're talking about finding the key signature of a song with your only reference being listening to it.

[Sebastian]

Good
Hopefully I wont have to ask again