Submission Information:
Series: Other
Game: Hollow Knight
Console: PC
Title: City of Tears
Instrumentation Solo Piano
Arranger: PlayfulPiano (https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=5305)
[attachment deleted by admin]
Reference: https://viewsync.net/watch?v=k-BswU3trrY&t=0&v=5jBrLedSJ-M&t=0&mode=solo
While there have been CoT arrangements made on musescore, there haven't been any that used the full theme for solo piano, only at the OST cutoff point. So I tried taking a stab at it, which I feel has gone pretty well.
The above link is what I used as a reference, since the official OST cuts out at 3 minutes (while the theme does go beyond to ~5 minutes in game). A person on YT was able to record the individual layers for the theme, which luckily overlaps most of the time throughout the piece. I did put preference for the inner loop though, which had the piano section.
I also went through on piano to make sure that all of the arrangement can be performed, as well as avoiding any chords beyond a 9th. There is one issue towards the end though (m129 - m140) which has some overlapping for both hands, so any suggestions to make that more playable would be greatly appreciated.
Beyond that, the piano/harp post-3 minutes tends to have an extra d at times, but it varies from audible to barely noticeable. I used my own discretion in when the d should be included, although that might need to be changed.
Lastly, there's probably some formatting issues with rests / dynamic markers that need to be adjusted, so let me know what formatting mistakes I missed.
Also feel free to ping me on the discord if you have any questions/concerns regarding the piece. -PlayfulPiano
Hmm, I'm feeling a different rhythmic vibe than what's written. Much of what I'm hearing as well as much of what you wrote points more to 12/16 - that is, groups of three 16th notes, instead of groups of three pairs of 16th notes as 6/8 implies. That's not to say it's necessarily that all the way through, as there are some syncopated rhythms that don't fit well in 12/16, or even in 6/8.
Thoughts?
Quote from: Latios212 on September 07, 2019, 09:32:29 AMHmm, I'm feeling a different rhythmic vibe than what's written. Much of what I'm hearing as well as much of what you wrote points more to 12/16 - that is, groups of three 16th notes, instead of groups of three pairs of 16th notes as 6/8 implies. That's not to say it's necessarily that all the way through, as there are some syncopated rhythms that don't fit well in 12/16, or even in 6/8.
Thoughts?
It's definitely weird (seems to be a reoccurring theme for pieces I pick lol). There can definitely be an argument for a 2 beat subdivision up to around m29ish at least with the arrangement, but the original with both loops combined has it seemingly a 3 beat subdivision up to measure 13 and then a 4 beat subdivision up to m45, in which it's both 3 beat and 4 beat overlapped on each other up to m76, then goes to a consistent 4 beat subdivision for the rest of the piece *I think*. Although when separated, their time signatures seem to also change (inner loop seems to be more similar to a 6/8 timesignature, which is why I initially arranged it to be 6/8).
12/16 would I guess be the safest time signature across the entire piece but it would probably have to receive constant subdivision changes though.
What are your thoughts on this? (12/16 constant throughout)
m1-4: 2 beat subdivision
m5-12: 3 beat subdivision
m13-m44: 4 beat subdivision
m45-m76: ? ? ? ?
m77+: 4 beat subdivision
Updated the portal with hopefully better subdivisions.
Tbh, I'd still group the section at m.45 in groups of 3 on the top, with the quarters on in the lower staff. It's perfectly fine to have two different pulses in each hand in opposition to one another.
Quote from: InsigTurtle on September 21, 2019, 09:33:28 PMTbh, I'd still group the section at m.45 in groups of 3 on the top, with the quarters on in the lower staff. It's perfectly fine to have two different pulses in each hand in opposition to one another.
Groups of 3 as in 3 sixteenths or as in the measure being divided into 3 sections?
As in groups of 3 16ths in the top staff, vs 4 16ths in the bottom staff as quarters
Quote from: InsigTurtle on September 22, 2019, 11:53:18 PMAs in groups of 3 16ths in the top staff, vs 4 16ths in the bottom staff as quarters
Just tried doing it, turns out finale allegro doesn't allow split time signatures for different piano staffs.
So uh, can't do that on my end at least.
Besides that issue, any problems with the notation?
- The entire piece should be 12/16 with 3-note subdivisions throughout; don't let the occasionally shifting rhythms confuse you.
- For the LH, please do not use 15mb. Just switch to bass clef (yes it's OK to switch for just one note; it's common practice in LH patterns with large leaps like this).
- At m45, keep the RH in groups of 3 16th notes like everywhere else. The new part is the quarters in the LH, which contrasts the same steady 12/16 feel as before (i.e. what Insig said). This is the only spot that should have quarter notes like this (groups of 4 16ths). This isn't a split time signature, this is just writing the rhythms differently (as if they were in a different time signature, but they're not).
- m79-116: Why are the notes beamed this way? It's inconsistent with all the other 12/16 patterns and is pretty confusing to read. You should separate the first 16th note and the 8th note in every spot where this pattern occurs.
- All key changes need double barlines.
- m129-140: Use dotted 8th rests instead of 8th+16th. It'll reduce a lot of clutter here.
- There's a lot of space at the bottom of each page, but the top staves on each page seem really close to the titles/page numbers. The notes on the top of page 2 even go beyond the page number. The spacing should be consistent on pages 2-8.
Quote from: Static on December 06, 2019, 03:40:29 PM- The entire piece should be 12/16 with 3-note subdivisions throughout; don't let the occasionally shifting rhythms confuse you.
- For the LH, please do not use 15mb. Just switch to bass clef (yes it's OK to switch for just one note; it's common practice in LH patterns with large leaps like this).
- At m45, keep the RH in groups of 3 16th notes like everywhere else. The new part is the quarters in the LH, which contrasts the same steady 12/16 feel as before (i.e. what Insig said). This is the only spot that should have quarter notes like this (groups of 4 16ths). This isn't a split time signature, this is just writing the rhythms differently (as if they were in a different time signature, but they're not).
- m79-116: Why are the notes beamed this way? It's inconsistent with all the other 12/16 patterns and is pretty confusing to read. You should separate the first 16th note and the 8th note in every spot where this pattern occurs.
- All key changes need double barlines.
- m129-140: Use dotted 8th rests instead of 8th+16th. It'll reduce a lot of clutter here.
- There's a lot of space at the bottom of each page, but the top staves on each page seem really close to the titles/page numbers. The notes on the top of page 2 even go beyond the page number. The spacing should be consistent on pages 2-8.
-Alright, I fixed the subdivisions + used the global rebar music setting. Hopefully everything looks better now.
-I had to use 15mb as finale allegro does not support single note clef changes. That would have to be done after the arrangement is completely finished in terms of the submission process (in which someone else would have to make that change on their more up to date version of finale) to fix it. I changed this section to a flat base clef if that's easier to work with later.
-Done.
-Fixed.
-Changed.
-I might need help to fix this part, but hopefully what's done is better. There's less (but now consistent) space between the systems and they won't overlap with the page numbers. Page total is down to 6 (from 8 ).
Hopefully I didn't miss anything. Portal updated.
Sorry for the wait on this one! It looks great! Just a couple more things:
- Some of the accidentals are touching barlines, you can fix this by adding space to the beginning of the measure (Edit Measure Attributes); if you're version of Finale can't do that I can take care of it.
- The F# in m125 should be a Gb
- The rests, particularly on page 6, should be lined up most of the time. Right now their placement seems kind of random.
- Some of the crescendos collide with stems; you can fix this by angling them. Again, if you can't make this change I can take care of it as well.
After these changes are made I'll add those clef changes in (any anything else you may need) and approve.
The PDF looks a little funny, too. Drop your .mus file here once you're done so we can make a clean one for you.
Quote from: Static on February 02, 2020, 03:17:42 PMSorry for the wait on this one! It looks great! Just a couple more things:
- Some of the accidentals are touching barlines, you can fix this by adding space to the beginning of the measure (Edit Measure Attributes); if you're version of Finale can't do that I can take care of it.
- The F# in m125 should be a Gb
- The rests, particularly on page 6, should be lined up most of the time. Right now their placement seems kind of random.
- Some of the crescendos collide with stems; you can fix this by angling them. Again, if you can't make this change I can take care of it as well.
After these changes are made I'll add those clef changes in (any anything else you may need) and approve.
-Not sure where the accidentals in question are. Should I just do a global select and EMA? (I'm able to do it on my end)
-Will fix.
-Hopefully this is fixed now. I tried using "rebar music" to fix it.
-Instead of using crescendos, could you apply mid-measure treble clef for the locations where there are high pitched left handed notes? I can't do that in finale allegro. e.g. m37-m41.
The changes you made look good - I went ahead and got everything else for you, along with a few other changes:
- The tempo marking should be in a dotted quarter or dotted 8th value because of time signature - quarter notes aren't the main/default beat grouping in 12/16. (I went with dotted quarters)
- Adjusted some dynamic placements so nothing is touching anything else.
- Adjusted placement of 1st/2nd ending brackets since they were clashing with notes.
- I also changed m117-128 LH to bass clef; I think it works better for this section.
- Bn in m130 LH changed to Cb (chromatic enclosure to the Bb in m131).
If you're satisfied with the changes (see the file here (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1bioyEdO35FzIjc3u_mumP0qIY6lRFcEv)), feel free to edit the sub with this file and I'll accept. If you have any questions about the above or concerns (like if anything I edited didn't carry over since I'm sending you a Finale 2012 file), let me know.
Quote from: Static on February 04, 2020, 07:21:45 PMThe changes you made look good - I went ahead and got everything else for you, along with a few other changes:
- The tempo marking should be in a dotted quarter or dotted 8th value because of time signature - quarter notes aren't the main/default beat grouping in 12/16. (I went with dotted quarters)
- Adjusted some dynamic placements so nothing is touching anything else.
- Adjusted placement of 1st/2nd ending brackets since they were clashing with notes.
- I also changed m117-128 LH to bass clef; I think it works better for this section.
- Bn in m130 LH changed to Cb (chromatic enclosure to the Bb in m131).
If you're satisfied with the changes (see the file here (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1bioyEdO35FzIjc3u_mumP0qIY6lRFcEv)), feel free to edit the sub with this file and I'll accept. If you have any questions about the above or concerns (like if anything I edited didn't carry over since I'm sending you a Finale 2012 file), let me know.
That all looks great! There's just one thing, not your fault but mine, but I took a relisten to the themes, and I realized there was one section that I should honestly include that I didn't before. It's m79-m96, specifically the vocals in the background (more audible in the outside loop vers). I added those additions and have updated the portal, but b/c I was using notepad 2012, I didn't have the means to hide the initial beats for these measures. So I'll need you to hide those on your end.
As long as those additions are fine, then i'm perfectly happy with it getting accepted.
Looks good. I hid those rests for you and did some layer flipping in m93 so it looks a little nicer. I also adjusted the title/page number/copyright text so it's all within the margins. All these changes should be present in the files in the OP now; let me know if there's any issues or anything. With that out of the way, I'll go ahead and give my approval.
No issues, thank you so much Static.
here we go.
Click on m32 to respace it. It's kinda cramped as is, but finale can fix that for you easily
m70 LH - misaligned layer.
I'm not a fan of the hidden rests in the RH when the melody is playing. Yes, there may be notes being played then, but the 2nd layer has nothing.
Center the cresc. and dim. in m39 and 43
m45-74. I really don't like the LH second layer here because it fails to capture the movement of the bassline like in the original. I get that it was tricky to fit everything in, but it just sounds wrong when the lowest note doesn't move when it does in the original, or even moves in the opposite direction. I understand if you are not able to fully realize this, but I still feel the need to bring it up.
Also, just because a recording from the game just ... ends like that doesn't mean that your version has to as well. Either try to loop it in a way consistent with the game or add another measure or something to end it like m79 does in the OST version.
I think that's it.
Quote from: Maelstrom on April 23, 2020, 05:09:59 PMhere we go.
Click on m32 to respace it. It's kinda cramped as is, but finale can fix that for you easily
m70 LH - misaligned layer.
I'm not a fan of the hidden rests in the RH when the melody is playing. Yes, there may be notes being played then, but the 2nd layer has nothing.
Center the cresc. and dim. in m39 and 43
m45-74. I really don't like the LH second layer here because it fails to capture the movement of the bassline like in the original. I get that it was tricky to fit everything in, but it just sounds wrong when the lowest note doesn't move when it does in the original, or even moves in the opposite direction. I understand if you are not able to fully realize this, but I still feel the need to bring it up.
Also, just because a recording from the game just ... ends like that doesn't mean that your version has to as well. Either try to loop it in a way consistent with the game or add another measure or something to end it like m79 does in the OST version.
I think that's it.
Now that it's saved as an updated version, I can't access it using Finale Allegro 2007, meaning I'm now severely limited on what I can accomplish. If possible, could you potentially make these edits on your end with me dictating the changes here?
These are my changed and/or feedback, in order:
-General formatting fixes, would do.
-This is something I honestly didn't really catch until you pointed it out, but I can't really think of a way to address this without affecting the main melody's position, causing unplayable chords, or involving potential overlap. I do think m45-m52 sounds perfectly fine, though. Do you have any ideas though for m53-m74?
-I was thinking about that last part in my personal performances so I have an idea of what to do. The idea is to end with a D.C. al Coda, put a To Coda between m76 and m77, and have the coda contain m77-78 again with a whole note C2 as the last measure with a Fermata.
I've edited the files in the OP with some improved formatting (unhid some rests that Maelstrom suggested, centered some dynamics, fixed note spacing, etc.). I probably wouldn't have picked that spot for the coda, but hey it works pretty well - I just added a fermata like you said, since it was missing. Regarding mm45-74, I think it's fine the way it is now. If all the chords were in their original inversions, it would be a lot more cumbersome to play in some spots, and I don't really think it sounds bad as it is. That's just me though...
are you sure I didn't make those changes?
accepted
This submission has been accepted by Maelstrom (https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=4119).
~Zeta, your friendly NSM-Bot