Pokemon Showdown!

[Waddle Bro]

LOL rain boosted Hydro Pumps.

what part of "in the sun" didnt you understand

There is no way to prove or support arguments that say a weather condition is better than the others, when it's always up to the players.

I don't think you understood me. Chlorophyll is often the central ability for Grass-type sun sweepers: by comparison, Swift Swim and Drizzle are banned together in OU (and Sand Veil as well?); without it, many of them (especially Venusaur) can become easy prey, without the extra Speed and Growth boosts. My point was that it's often harder to keep sunny weather up than rainy weather, which is one factor working against sun teams.
Moonlight on Cresselia is generally used in defensive sets, and yes, I've seen it on sun teams before.

Sun sweepers. Pfft. I use as my sun sweeper a Life Orb Raikou with T-Bolt, Weather Ball, HP Ice and Volt Switch. No one uses Grass-type su sweepers because they're so easy to counter. People use sun to counter rain and boost random Fire-type moves.
"Keeping sun up is harder than with rain" is no argument. You can't say that, because you haven't even seen what kind Pokemons are being used.
Also nobody uses Cresselia in OU. There are much better choices.

I never recall saying that sun teams couldn't destroy rain teams: merely that Waddle was stating an unsupported argument that, in general, sun teams are superior (more accurately, stating that sun teams ARE a good counter for rain teams, while seemingly disregarding everything that makes rain teams desirable to use in the first place).
The reason why I jumped in in the first place was because you were saying that sun was "a good counter against rain teams" AND later, that "Sun cripples rain teams."

Just because something is a good counter doesn't mean it's superior. Rain is a good counter to sun also, but I was making a point why people use sun in OU. And you didn't get it. There are so many rain teams running around that a little sun can fuck bitches over. Next time I hope you'll understand so you don't have to make me start a medication to lower my blood pressure with your bullshit.

ninja'd
BDS, there is a time to just walk away. I'd respect you if you could do so.

[SlowPokemon]

you'd have to be a moron

And there you have it

[BlackDragonSlayer]

ಠ_ಠ

what part of "in the sun" didnt you understand

The fact that you wouldn't be blasting multiple Hydro Pumps at Ninetales in the sun, especially if you knew it had Energy Ball/Solar Beam.

There is no way to prove or support arguments that say a weather condition is better than the others, when it's always up to the players.

I don't see how you can come to the conclusion (rather, I don't see how you can state the implication) that I was the one who was trying to "support arguments that say a weather condition is better than the others," and yet, I clearly stated that: "It's not impossible to make a good sun team to counter rain."

No one uses Grass-type su sweepers because they're so easy to counter. People use sun to counter rain and boost random Fire-type moves.

*sarcasm on*
Yes, nobody uses Grass-type sweepers. Absolutely nobody.

"Keeping sun up is harder than with rain" is no argument. You can't say that, because you haven't even seen what kind Pokemons are being used.

Tell me more about how I haven't used rain and sun teams in Ubers, OU, CAP Malaconda Playtest, and Sunny Day teams in UU. Not to mention all the weather teams I haven't battled...
Please enlighten me with your fact-filled arguments.
*sarcasm off*

Also nobody uses Cresselia in OU. There are much better choices.

While Cresselia is much better in UU, I agree, I must contest your statement that nobody uses Cresselia in OU. A simple search results in this, from Smogon's OU analysis of Cresselia:

Under the sunlight, Moonlight, an otherwise mediocre recovery move, restores Cresselia's health by a staggering 67%. This, along with her excellent ability, Levitate, allows Cresselia to wall some of the most powerful Pokemon in OU, such as Garchomp and Terrakion, both of which are troublesome Pokemon for sun teams.

Now, I'll admit that I myself haven't exactly used Cresselia in sun teams, but I will say that I have seen it in more than one (and more than two or three) team I've encountered before.

Just because something is a good counter doesn't mean it's superior. Rain is a good counter to sun also, but I was making a point why people use sun in OU. And you didn't get it. There are so many rain teams running around that a little sun can fuck bitches over.

If you're playing against somebody with a run-of-the-mill rain team, of course you're likely going to have an advantage over them... but that's not the point!

BDS, there is a time to just walk away. I'd respect you if you could do so.

I find it interesting how you place the "blame" on me, merely because I disagree with your opinions. At least I had the respect to not to state such a frivolous and arrogant statement (I would use another word, but I detest its usage in such a context) as "there is a time to just walk away," giving the full-on implication that I am the one in the wrong. It's odd how you talk about respect when you seem to be determined to demean and slander me in such a way: you say that I can just walk away, yet you yourself give no mention to how we can both just walk away. We have officially turned a discussion about Charizard and weather into an argument about sun vs. rain, and now, into a mudslinging-fest.
I wonder if you are trying to anger me to the point where I just give up.


Now, if you'll excuse me, for once, I will be the first to walk away (but I'll be back after I find some sun vs. rain match replays).

[Dude]

Everyone needs to shut up or else.

[FireArrow]

Wtf just happened? You guys are behaving more immature than those I-have-so-much-swag 13 year olds, just stop it. Anyways, I'm gonna be starting from here, because I don't feel like jumping into that flame war. Oh, and to clear things up Waddle while we are am saying Rainh as advantages over sun, we're not saying that sun always loses to rain nor that sun isn't a viable strategy in OU.

That's why you preserve the Pokemon who have the weather effects, in order to beat the weather war. It'd be stupid to keep your weather Pokemon out on the field against the one who has the advantage: that's why you can't tell which weather Pokemon is the better one.

It's not a matter of which is better, it's a matter of type match ups. Politoad has much more switch in opportunities than Ninetails does in a Rain vs. Sun match-up.

Even though Rain has much more uses than Sun, Sun cripples rain teams. Because sun doesn't offer that much advantages, Sun teams are usually very flexible to build, since they only use sun to power up moves(/Chlorophyll) and to cripple rain teams. Rain teams use more of the advantages the rain offers, meaning they allow sun cripple you more than the other way around.

Remember, we're talking about sun teams WITH Charizard. Charizard compounds suns inherit weakness (SR, rain) leaving you in less of a flexible position. Additionally, only an idiot is going to load their team with rain reliant pokemon without taking other weather teams into consideration - you can't talk as if the sun player is skilled and the rain player isn't.

Experience -> Skill and Knowledge.

I play Pokemon daily, and I battle at least 5 times a week. And I disagree that Charizard isn't usable in OU/Ubers "because of the rain".

Just because you play pokemon a lot doesn't make you correct. If someone who's been playing competitively for 5 years shows up and disagrees with you, would you just go "I'm so sorry, I didn't realize more experienced players disagreed with my opinion!" I assure you, there's more experienced players on both side of this argument.

EDIT: sry dude you ninja'd me

[Roz~]

Doodle is mad

[Waddle Bro]

You can't say that Politoad has a lot more switch-in possibilities. What if the there's Stealth Rocks and three layers of Spikes and a double layer of Toxic Spikes? The point is that you can't tell beforehand which one could switch in the better for sure.

I was saying sun cripples rain more than rain does rain. I wasn't saying anything that rsun was better. It's the only logical solution that in a case when there are different amounts of something(weather-using abilities), and they're all reduced to zero, it's obvious that the amount that had the most, took the most damage(=crippling). Even though Charizard has weaknesses, so what? Everyone has. Sr are meant to spin away, or not. Rain is meant to get rid of, or not.
I use Charizard as a revenge killer, meaning the rocks won't necessarily cripple it. You seem to be saying that they would.
I'm still standing by my point that arguing that rain is better than sun is silly, because there are so many different situations in Pokemon.

Playing a lot of Pokemon won't make me correct, but it will give you an opportunity to think "this guy knows what he's doing, maybe he couldn't be wrong there".
also now you said you've been playing Pokemon for five years and in your previous post you said "3-4"

[Yugi]

Can Charizard be used in Ubers?

[Waddle Bro]

It can, but it's much, much better in OU. I recommend using a Scarf-Air Slash-Fire Blast-SolarBeam-Dragon Pulse set.

There are way better options than Charizard in Ubers, but it's usable.

[FireArrow]

You can't say that Politoad has a lot more switch-in possibilities. What if the there's Stealth Rocks and three layers of Spikes and a double layer of Toxic Spikes? The point is that you can't tell beforehand which one could switch in the better for sure.

Well, for starters, ninetails is weak to stealth rock. Second, setting up all the entry hazards on a sun team with charizard is just unrealistic - you'd have to either have to use a Forretress set of rapid spin/spikes/toxic spikes/SR  or greatly limit your open slots (both of which aren't a good idea.) Finally, Sun vs. Rain is just a bad type much up for ninetails, the opponent is gonna be firing off water attacks like crazy. Ninetails is just incapable of taking those hits while Politoad doesn't care if it switches into a fire blast. Actually, the biggest thing is that politoad can switch into ninetails (especially if it takes solar beam over energy ball.)

I was saying sun cripples rain more than rain does rain. I wasn't saying anything that rsun was better. It's the only logical solution that in a case when there are different amounts of something(weather-using abilities), and they're all reduced to zero, it's obvious that the amount that had the most, took the most damage(=crippling). Even though Charizard has weaknesses, so what? Everyone has. Sr are meant to spin away, or not. Rain is meant to get rid of, or not.

I use Charizard as a revenge killer, meaning the rocks won't necessarily cripple it. You seem to be saying that they would.
I'm still standing by my point that arguing that rain is better than sun is silly, because there are so many different situations in Pokemon.

Rain vs. Rain is a mirror match, take that how you will. Sun vs. Rain is in rains favor unless you build you sun team to counter rain. However, Charizard does the exact opposite of this, as I said before, it compounds suns weaknesses, so you have one less slot to use against rain and a lot more ground to cover up.

Yes, everything has a weakness, Charizard just has a lot more than most OU pokemon. If stealth rocks is up, he can literally only switch in ONCE (even if you set up your evs right, solar power is gonna be hammering away at your HP.) He has no synergy with ninetails either, leaving no room for another fire type sweeper.

Playing a lot of Pokemon won't make me correct, but it will give you an opportunity to think "this guy knows what he's doing, maybe he couldn't be wrong there".
also now you said you've been playing Pokemon for five years and in your previous post you said "3-4"

I wasn't referring to myself, just kinda stating a "what if." TBH, while I have been doing competitive battling for awhile, I'm not nearly as serious of a player as you.

[Waddle Bro]

You'd be a fucking moron to switch Ninetails into an on-coming water attack in rain. That's why U-Turns and Volt Switches are crucial when trying to predict. Here's an example battle with a team I got around building yesterday, after I got inspiration from this argument. *thumbs up for the epic burn Rapid Spin kill* I don't usually do Showdown, except when trolling or team designing.

A Scarfed Charizard isn't on the wrong side of anything. It's a powerhouse already and if sun is up, it's even more. It's kind of like using a Volcarona, but not having to waste a turn to Quiver Dance and possibly be taken out by the opponent. The only cost is the Choice and Solar Power, but it's worth it. I consider sun teams that aren't designed to have options to counter other weathers plain stupid. Also the fact that you know the other person would really want to set up those SR agains my Charizard, gives me a good advantage(like seen in that test battle, my overprediction of keeping Ninetails in, and fire off a HP Ice against that Landorus-T).

[spitllama]

Wow I can't believe how pissed people are getting over a video game. Seriously, grow up. If you really need to prove each other wrong that badly then just take those teams you're so fond of and battle. Do a rain v. sun team. Idk. Just stop the whining.

[Dude]

guys i mean it.

[FSM-Reapr]

I think it's more of a "if I shut up, the other person thinks he won the argument war so i can't allow that.", instead of getting pissed.

Although I do have to say that much that Charizard is definitely usable in OU.

also doodle you seem angry give me a hug

[SlowPokemon]

Wow I can't believe how pissed people are getting over a video game. Seriously, grow up. If you really need to prove each other wrong that badly then just take those teams you're so fond of and battle. Do a rain v. sun team. Idk. Just stop the whining.

It's competitive Pokemon; it seems that all social norms are forgotten