TWG XLVI: Have it Your Way

[MaestroUGC]

Of course I haven't done anything, there was nothing to be done. Until now we had little to go on, so we were all just grasping straws, now that Bird is dead, I have a feeling the wolves wanted him out of the way early on, which with as many players as there are is a good move on their part, since he was taking the lead; or they panicked and killed off a strong player.

I suppose I should start paying close attention now that people are dying. SocialFox, I don't have a vendetta, what are you talking about?

[BlackDragonSlayer]

Of course I haven't done anything, there was nothing to be done. Until now we had little to go on, so we were all just grasping straws, now that Bird is dead, I have a feeling the wolves wanted him out of the way early on, which with as many players as there are is a good move on their part, since he was taking the lead; or they panicked and killed off a strong player.

I suppose I should start paying close attention now that people are dying. SocialFox, I don't have a vendetta, what are you talking about?

The wolves could have easily wolfed Bird, like you said, to get him out of the way, and to frame a person, or multiple people.

[Yugi]

SocialFox, I don't have a vendetta, what are you talking about?

I don't remember You or myself saying that you had a vendetta.

Although there was that part when you randomly voted for me.

[Bird]

wolves are bant after i find out who they are

unless they're me!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!!?!?!?!!??!?!?!?

[vermilionvermin]

It's a Liggy vote for me.

1.  He's more dedicated to defending blueflower than finding out whether he's a wolf or not.  (19:13 and 19:39 on the log really drive this point home). - MOST IMPORTANT POINT OF THE WHOLE THING, ANYTHING ELSE I HAVE IS SECONDARY TO THIS.

I am not doing this.  Just that simple.  What I am doing is defending people who have much less of a reason to be suspicious.  I'm going to be honest in that I didn't even see any of the reasons why blue was suspicious besides defending Social Fox, which I felt wasn't really a Goode one.

I think the lynches you supported stood on even weaker ground even if you took away the previous performance portion of the accusation, but I'll get to that a little later in point 5.

3.  I'm not sure how to reconcile this with point 2, but he also thought the phase ended earlier than it actually does.  This would make sense if blueflower's green because defending a human makes a person look human usually.

I didn't say this either!  I have no idea when you thought I said this, or why you keep thinking I said stuff I didn't, but eh.  Even if I did say this, it isn't suspicious!  Regardless of my role, I'd want to defend someone that is being lynched near the end if the tread if they can't defend themselves and I don't think they should be lynched.

I suppose it's possible you missed Socialfox's mentioning of it in the chat, (the last thing the log has you saying is four minutes before he mentions that the phase ends soon) but even so TBWCW mentioned the wrong phase ending time in the thread.

4.  Basically the first point of my last post.  After I tell him that blueflower is suspicious (19:03), he is still strongly against lynching him (19:12).  Later on (19:30), he says that my accusation makes sense and that he's willing to lynch blueflower as a result.  But even when he was staunchly against the blueflower lynch, he still had heard the reasoning against blueflower.

This is the point that makes the most sense, but like I said earlier, I didn't actually realize "acting like he did when he was wolf" was a point against blueflower.  You may have said it by then, but honestly I think I missed it.  Sorry.  :/

This is still a thing.

5.  He doesn't evaluate shadowkirby and blueflower by the same standard.  I say that blueflower is partially suspicious for not defending Liggy.  Liggy responds that this is not suspicious because it's perfectly reasonable for a human blueflower to want to avoid being lynched (19:21).  But he's willing to lynch shadowkirby (19:12).  This could be because shadowkirby bandwagons the blueflower lynch, but the much stronger reason why shadowkirby is suspicious is the fact that he takes off his vote in order to seem less suspicious.  Basically, he's willing to discount blueflower's previous wolf tendencies but not shadowkirby's previous human bandwagoning tendencies.  He's willing to say that blueflower isn't suspicious for wanting to avoid being lynched, but doesn't give shadowkirby that same benefit of the doubt.

I'm suspicious of shadow and TPZ not for bandwagoning, but for bandwagoning at the same time.  If you notice, before I realized that blue and shadow were acting differently than they do as human, I had TPZ and shadow rated the same.

I don't think it's that unreasonable for them to vote for Blueflower in such a short time.  They had reason to believe that the phase was ending in a few hours, and at the time there wasn't really any suspect other than blueflower for whom they could vote.  I suppose Spitllama was an outside possibility at the time, but nobody else had a much of a case against them, let alone one that was as strong as the one against Blueflower.

[Liggy]

1, 3, and 5 won't only if I knew when the phase was ending.  I honestly wasn't that attentive so I didn't realize it, which makes a sudden two vote bandwagon in the middle of the phase seem very suspicious.  I understand people said it in the chat, but I'm pretty sure I must have missed them, which is very possible.

As for 4, I honestly just dropped it because it seemed pointless.  I had realized that I had misunderstood why you thought he was a wolf, so you're reasoning actually did make sense.

I had a log with Bird where he was telling me reasons why he was suspicious of Verm, but I lost it.  I'll withhold my vote until I see if I can find it, but if any of you have one you should post it.

[Toby]

Did I say the wrong phase ending time?

[vermilionvermin]

For TBWCW:  Yes.  http://www.ninsheetm.us/smf/index.php?topic=5214.msg188040#msg188040  I think you were off by about eleven or twelve hours!

For Liggy:  Basically bird says he and Liggy think it's odd that I just happened to find out that the wolves didn't know each other.  Here's the log of that (bolded well this time).

00:04   Vermilionvermin   i think i can prove that i found that while i was looking for things about liggy
00:04   bird   found what?
00:04   Vermilionvermin   that the wolves didn't know each other
00:04   Vermilionvermin   so during that log i was looking for stuff to bs an accusation against liggy right?
00:05   Vermilionvermin   one of the posts I was looking at was on the first page, where tbwcw mentions it
00:05   bird   Well that would be great. Go ahead, it'll completely clear your name.
00:05   Vermilionvermin   I guess it doesn't prove that that's where I found it
00:05   Vermilionvermin   Anyways, http://www.ninsheetm.us/smf/index.php?topic=5214.msg187175#msg187175 was the one I was talking about
00:06   bird   what about it
00:06   Vermilionvermin   His suggestion of seering mashi was originally the crux of my first accusation against him
00:06   Vermilionvermin   the one that I mention I'm writing in between our discussion of socialfox and my realization
00:06   bird   wasn't your first accusation against him consciously fake? and complete bullshit?
00:07   Vermilionvermin   Yes, but it was based on what he actually posted
00:07   Vermilionvermin   I don't remember if I linked that post
00:07   bird   I agree that that's a suspicious post.
00:07   bird   But what does it have to do with your master wolf discovery?
00:08   Vermilionvermin   I was on the page where tbwcw writes that
00:08   Vermilionvermin   the wolves don't know which one's the master wolf
00:08   bird   idk when he said that
00:08   Vermilionvermin   Yes, I do end up quoting the post on the first page
00:08   Vermilionvermin   http://www.ninsheetm.us/smf/index.php?topic=5214.msg187790#msg187790
00:08   Vermilionvermin   he said it in the first post
00:09   Vermilionvermin   http://www.ninsheetm.us/smf/index.php?topic=5214.msg187156#msg187156
00:09   Vermilionvermin   Below the roles
00:09   bird   err... i mean, yeah
00:10   bird   I thought you meant you'd be able to prove you found out about that master wolf thing from the first post though?
00:10   Vermilionvermin   well yeah
00:10   bird   As in, you'd be able to give me evidence suggesting you found it there rather than from your role PM and wolf communications
00:10   Vermilionvermin   that's where it was written
00:10   bird   Yes
00:10   Vermilionvermin   I did!
00:10   bird   but i thought you could give me your thought process perhaps?
00:10   bird   Or at least clarify it a bit, since i didn't follow very well the above stuff :V
00:11   Vermilionvermin   I proved to you that I was reading the page it's written on in while we were talking
00:11   Vermilionvermin   Okay, so during our conversations about socialfox i said i was going to write my bs accusation of liggy, correct?
00:11   bird   Yes
00:11   Vermilionvermin   15:17 Nighthawk i'll probably pressure liggy 15:17 Nighthawk based on his vote for mashi 15:17 Nighthawk i'll bs something
00:11   Vermilionvermin   all right
00:11   bird   Yes
00:12   Vermilionvermin   so then, 15:30 Nighthawk i just realized something which might change my mind about sf 15:30 Nighthawk reread the first post 15:30 Nighthawk all of the wolves are told they're the same thing
00:12   Vermilionvermin   In between those two times, I was writing my liggy accusation
00:12   bird   Got it
00:12   Vermilionvermin   my liggy accusation required me to be on the first page, where the information about the master wolves was written in colorful words
00:13   bird   Why did it require you to be on the first page?
00:13   bird   Oh is that where his post was?
00:13   Vermilionvermin   Yes
00:13   bird   and you just... decided to read the roles while you were there?
00:13   Vermilionvermin   I think I scrolled down from the top
00:14   Vermilionvermin   and the colorful text probably caught my eye or something
00:14   bird   did you decide to read the roles or did you just glimpse the "they don't know who is green" bit
00:14   Vermilionvermin   i don't remember this was almost two days ago
00:14   bird   Hmm
00:15   Vermilionvermin   I said i reread the first post so i probably did
00:15   bird   Well that story definitely didn't hurt you, but I don't know if it helps you all that much either! If you're looking for a specific post by Liggy, I can't imagine you dawdling by the top of the page if you need to be scrolling, and I don't think it's likely that you'd be able to catch the truth about the master wolf just by glimpsing it. It's a mess of red and green at a glance.
00:15   Vermilionvermin   though skimming probably qualified in my mind as rereading it
00:16   bird   well it's a very plausible story
00:16   bird   Hmmm
00:17   bird   and ultimately my vote on blueflower comes down to whether i think you're a wolf or not
00:17   bird   do i risk it all on liggy???

The reason I want to lynch you, Liggy, is because you're basically explaining everything suspicious about what you've done as just you not knowing information that was plainly available to you.  I'd written the details of the blueflower accusation at least once in the thread and I'd said it in the chat.  TBWCW had posted the wrong phase end time before and Socialfox said it in the chat.  The wolves not knowing which one was the master wolf was in both the player signups and in the original post in the thread.  If you've missed all that important game-altering stuff, why were you so confident that we shouldn't have lynched blueflower yesterday?

[Toby]

Oh mahn, shows how dumb I am. I guess I was referring to 9am and not 9pm

[Liggy]

Verm: Yeah, it's a horrible defense and I wouldn't trust it, but it's what happened!  There's no real way I can prove that I actually missed all of this stuff, and I'm not going to try and lie in order to save my skin, especially as a human when I shouldn't have to!

Also the log I was talking about was a private log with Bird, and I was simply asking if Bird had a similar discussion with anyone else.

[BlackDragonSlayer]

Verm: Yeah, it's a horrible defense and I wouldn't trust it, but it's what happened!  There's no real way I can prove that I actually missed all of this stuff, and I'm not going to try and lie in order to save my skin, especially as a human when I shouldn't have to!

Vermilionvemin seems very determined to get you out of the way, Liggy:

We should definitely guard Mashi tonight.  If Liggy's a human, I'd welcome the wolves wolfing him so we don't waste a lynch on him!

That doesn't seem... very human; it's a post that I keep getting drawn back to, so to say, especially given the current context.

[TheZeldaPianist275]

Verm: Yeah, it's a horrible defense and I wouldn't trust it, but it's what happened!  There's no real way I can prove that I actually missed all of this stuff, and I'm not going to try and lie in order to save my skin, especially as a human when I shouldn't have to!

Also the log I was talking about was a private log with Bird, and I was simply asking if Bird had a similar discussion with anyone else.

Someone's getting desperate... but at the same time what BDS just said rings true.  I am tending not to trust either Verm or Liggy right now.  Even if they were both wolves I wouldn't even think Verm's trying to cover for Liggy by accusing him, because he's pushing really hard for a lynch.  I feel like either Verm or Liggy is a wolf.

[Liggy]

Some points that strike me as odd:

TZP suspecting 4 inactives over me and verm, and both of us should probably be near the top of everyone's list because no one else has really been defending us.  For that matter, the lack of hard suspicions on both me and verms, and the lack of people trying to defend us.  Stop coasting, people!

TZP putting Bubble lower than Mashi on his suspicion list without any reason.  I mean, Mashi hasn't proven his humanity at all, but a green seering is probably more definitive than anything anyone has done so far.

Maestro commenting that "There was nothing to do so far."  I'm really surprised that no one seems to have anything to say on me or verm, because truly the fact you have nothing to say is actually pretty noteworthy; it means that neither of us are acting suspicious.

[Yugi]

In the chat under the name of Octocat.

[Mashi]

01. Waddle Bro - Dead
02. Socialfox - No strong opinions.  Slightly suspicious of based on blueflower999 and spitllama's sort of defending of him so quick.
03. Bird - Miller. Dead.
04. Blueflower - Still find him suspicious for his response to Bird at the start of Day 1, in which Bird stated a suspicion of SocialFox for his acting weird Night 1, and blueflower999 responding that SocialFox is always weird
05. BlackDragonSlayer - No strong opinions.
06. MaestroUGC - No strong opinions.
07. Vermilionvermin - Mixed feelings.  He acted similarly in other game though, in which he reaction tested me and later became suspicious.  We were both Humans in that game, but verm verm's sneaky, so I'm not sure if it's exactly the same case again.
08. Bubbles7689 - No strong opinions.
09. Liggy - Liggy and I are close TWG buddies and I'm confident in my intuition to know whether he's Human.  Although he's done suspicious things in the game (which I've overlooked in my adamant inactivity, which also led me to call verm verm's arguments ridiculous, whoops!), I feel that the way he's acting has been genuine.  If he were a Wolf, I think he would have done a much better job avoiding suspicion also.
10. Shadowkirby - No strong opinions.
11. TheZeldaPianist - Sort of suspicious of him.  Though, vermilionvermin brings a good point that, presuming he were a Wolf, it would be frivolous of him to put only one hypothetical Wolf Partner (Bubbles7689) below me in his suspicion list.
12. Spitllama - Sort of suspicious of him for concurring with blueflower999 and defending SocialFox.
13. Jub [Phantom x1] - No strong opinions.
14. Mashi [Phantom x1] - Totes wuff.
15. Dude.  Dead.
16. K-NiGhT - No strong opinions.

So I'm going to safety on K-NiGhT for now, lest I forget to vote again.  In the meantime, you should all force me to be active if I'm not!!!
Also, I'm not sure where Jub3r7 is, but I'll try to get a hold of him, since I'm not sure he's even posted yet.