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Author Topic: Easy Versions Idea  (Read 8479 times)

FierceDeity

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Re: Easy Versions Idea
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2015, 08:29:26 AM »

I'm glad to know you gave this so much thought and consideration <3
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Olimar12345

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Re: Easy Versions Idea
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2015, 08:43:50 AM »

You know me.
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Re: Easy Versions Idea
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2015, 01:58:58 PM »

About the thing of making people lazy by making simplified versions. It was not my idea, my idea was: when making a submission you have the option of including a simplified version of you arrangement, or if your submitting a simplified version only it has to have be a simplified version of an arrangement already existing on site, so you can't just make a simplified version without a full version. It's should also be an option not a requirement, since some people might find it unnecessary, too much work, and some songs might be too easy so it makes no sense of making a simplified version, or the song might be too difficult to simplify.
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Re: Easy Versions Idea
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2015, 03:21:37 AM »

Easy Piano is a thing and it should be implemented on this site considering the average skill level of the NSM user -- not active arrangers, mind, the people who actually come here to play our sheets.
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Re: Easy Versions Idea
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2015, 07:25:58 AM »

Well seeing as its such a popular idea, perhaps we could move along to the next subject on this topic: What would it take to get this to happen and how would it work if it did?
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Bloop

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Re: Easy Versions Idea
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2015, 11:10:42 AM »

It would work great under the additional options where the multiple arrangers box roams

SlowPokemon

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Re: Easy Versions Idea
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2015, 03:16:54 PM »

It's not rocket science. If you'd like to submit an easy piano version of an arrangement, I would think that could be available in the same manner as two pianos or replacement. I think we should require that an intermediate-advanced arrangement already exist on the site, though.
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Tobbeh99

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Re: Easy Versions Idea
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2015, 07:29:36 PM »

my idea was: when making a submission you have the option of including a simplified version of you arrangement, or if your submitting a simplified version only it has to have be a simplified version of an arrangement already existing on site, so you can't just make a simplified version without a full version.
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Latios212

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Re: Easy Versions Idea
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2015, 08:40:21 PM »

My two cents:

- I don't think this discussion relates to duets, virtuoso sheets, or orchestrations at all. Simplified sheets are all about increasing accessibility and satisfying a broader audience while all of those LIMIT accessibility and DECREASE scope. The whole point of this is to make more people happy with the work we do here.

I also wouldn't want this to become a crutch for arrangers to get around doing a bit of hard work.
- I really don't think that's an issue for people here. Take arrangers who've posted on this thread for example. You have all shown they know their stuff by arranging awesome, complete sheets. No one could accuse any of you for avoiding work, as you've all clearly worked hard on the ones you have. The source of simplified sheets would be people who would be able to make a good reduction, not people who want to avoid doing work or don't know what they're doing.

- I'm going to introduce a relevant example for tangibility. Take a sheet by Fingerz that is about to replace a sheet by Slow. Now this isn't your traditional "replacing garbage on site" replacement. Slow's sheet is a version of the song that has been toned down enough to play comfortably after sitting with it for a reasonable amount of time, but still sounds like the original. I've played through it a bunch of times in the past and it sounds good. Fingerz's sheet, on the other hand, is more in the vein of what we've been aiming for recently - accuracy and ALL the right notes, and with it, a steeper difficulty. I'm not saying Fingerz's arrangement is too complicated to belong on site, or Slow's is too simple to belong on site. What I am saying is that they are both good sheets, and deserve their place on site because they serve different needs. Coexistence. If a talented pianist (and also video game fan) visits NSM wanting to play this song, they'd print Fingerz's sheet and have a fun time with it. On the flip side, if some kid who loves Pokémon and has a tiny bit of piano experience finds NSM wanting to play this song, they'd print Slow's sheet and have a fun time with it.

I see no reason why we can't cater to more people, especially if people are already willing to make the effort to do so.
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Re: Easy Versions Idea
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2015, 09:11:02 PM »

It's not rocket science. If you'd like to submit an easy piano version of an arrangement, I would think that could be available in the same manner as two pianos or replacement. I think we should require that an intermediate-advanced arrangement already exist on the site, though.
I totally agree. I think this is the best way it could work.
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KefkaticFanatic

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Re: Easy Versions Idea
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2015, 06:20:26 AM »

I personally believe that two pianos should never have been allowed, it just encourages lazy transcribing rather than an attempt at a solo piano arrangement.  There should neve

I wouldn't be totally opposed to easy piano, even with its subjectiveness, but I would see it as something that should ONLY come after a more proper arrangement was done.  It would definitely have to be "easy" in all sense of things, keeping the main melody but skimping on complicated chords or quick movements.  What I see being the main issue is "easy" getting overly simplistic, or being barely different from the original arrangement.  This is of course something that makes it a difficult task, and one that arrangers and updaters would have to work together on to achieve.

Actually, having "easy" would make some of the more complex songs much easier to deal with.  The "easy piano" version could be the simple melody and backing voices with the original still being recognizable, while the "standard" would be where the arranger does the real work trying to meld the various extra voices together keeping it as a reasonable solo piano piece while keeping as much of the full feel of the original song as possible.

It would have to take Jamaha, Olimar and the rest of the updaters to talk about and agree on something like this though.  It would be nice if you could have a mature discussion about this Olimar because it's not at all an unreasonable concept, and the community has definitely matured to have a strong baseline far beyond the "arrangements-r-us" cheapo assembly line of old.
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DonValentino

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Re: Easy Versions Idea
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2015, 02:07:20 PM »

Let's suppose this is implemented. Who's to say one arrangement needs a simplified version and another one doesn't? If the player doesn't have the necessary skill to play a certain arrangement, then it's up to the player to simplify it to match their personal skills, and maybe progressively adding what has been removed.

I'm totally with Olimar on this one, a song could be simplified almost to infinity, it would be complicate things way too much. As for the duets argument, that's another story that has nothing to do with this. Duets stand as something independent, not as an extension of solos. Not to mention that I suppose what you guys are saying is that duets should also have easy versions? What really matters in the end is actual playability of what's written, nothing else.

Why shouldn't be this allowed? Well aside from what's above, why shouldn't remixes be allowed? Why shouldn't orchestral arrangements be allowed? Why shouldn't clarinet-only arrangements be allowed? Consistency.

Edit: Ok, you could say, "But virtuoso arrangements are technically playable, so they should be allowed following your reasoning!". A virtuoso arrangement is an expansion of a song, almost a remix, where the arranger uses the original song as a model to create something impressive, and, well, virtuoso. It would be the same as simplifying a song, but inverted, making it more difficult instead.

That way the other arguments apply too, who's to say this arrangement is too difficult or not difficult enough? Both extremes are too vague and differ a lot depending on the person so as to mark a "Standard-easy" and "Standard-difficult". "Standard-difficulty", on the other hand, is determined by the original song, therefore making it plausible.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2015, 02:29:27 PM by DonValentino »
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Brawler4Ever

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Re: Easy Versions Idea
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2015, 04:47:30 PM »

Latios introduced one example, I'll introduce another.
Athletic - Super Mario World is an incredibly difficult and popular song. It's one of the main songs that brought me to NSM, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's the same story for many others.

This is the sheet currently on the site. I fixed the copyright and url, but other than that, I made no changes to the song itself.
This is the same sheet, simplified.

All I did was remove most of the red notes, raise most of the single quarter notes up an octave, change the last measure to more non-intuitively use both hands, and reduce each chord down to two notes (deleting the bottom or bottom two notes, depending on the chord). It wasn't that difficult to make the changes. Took me about an hour.

To defend Don and Olimar's point, at what point is a sheet too difficult to simplify for the average user? At what point can an average NSM user not make the same changes that I just made? To put it simply, it's a judgement call. It's a matter of opinion. Although, for the record, I'm all for allowing simplified sheets, within the boundaries of reason. Not every song needs to be simplified. But I believe that some do.

I agree with Kefkatic; let the staff discuss it. They've been at this much longer than most of us, and I'm totally fine with whatever decision that they make.
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Re: Easy Versions Idea
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2015, 05:14:33 PM »

Why shouldn't be this allowed? Well aside from what's above, why shouldn't remixes be allowed? Why shouldn't orchestral arrangements be allowed? Why shouldn't clarinet-only arrangements be allowed? Consistency.
I'm not trying to attack anyone in any way whatsoever but I'm going to say that I hate this argument because it falls apart on itself for two big reasons:
1) If you really want consistency to the degree you're describing, then duets and two pianos should be eliminated as well really.
2) The big difference is exactly as Latios said. Every single thing you mentioned limits the number of people who could benefit from it, where easy piano would vastly expand it. Hugely. That's why I think it's such a good idea to do this.

Now, addressing Kefka's point of the lazy transcribing thing (which I do fully agree can/prob will be a problem): This would be another reason I'd say we have mods. We can't put strict laws on every specific thing (like how much simpler a "simplified" should be) but fortunately, we don't have to. We have mods who can add that human reason and logic to these specific and individual situations.

That being said, I'd also like to remind the mods (and other ppl against the idea) that if this does get implemented, in no way are the mods giving up any of their power whatsoever. They're still rulers of NSM and exempt to the rules within reason and with good reason. If we try and this falls on its face, we can forget it. No decision is permanent until we have loads of sheets already up. We could do a trial period for the skeptics. :P

I agree with Kefkatic; let the staff discuss it. They've been at this much longer than most of us, and I'm totally fine with whatever decision that they make.
Haha while I agree, truth is we don't really have much of a choice anyways. The mods' word is law.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2015, 05:16:53 PM by JDMEK5 »
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Tobbeh99

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Re: Easy Versions Idea
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2015, 05:19:54 PM »

As I said in my previous post I think that, if it's going to be possible adding easy versions, it should be an option not a requirement. So that people who want to submit an easy version along side with their "full arrangement" can do that, but people who don't want to aren't required to do so, so it's up to the arranger to decide whether an arrangement is to difficult or not, or if it needs a simplified version along side it or not. I also wanted to make it an option to add only a simplified version, but it should be to an arrangement already existing on site. So for example if someone made an arrangement, and thought something like: "this isn't too difficult" or "I don't feel like making an easy version, people can simplify by themselves", that happen to accepted and uploaded to the main site. Then later comes another arranger who looked at it and thought something like: "this is my favorite tune, ...but it is too difficult to play" or "this is a great theme but somewhat difficult, might by nice to an easy version along side it"; then that person should have the option of creating a simplified version of the arrangement the first person created. And in the end the second arrangement(the simplified one) happens to be accepted and uploaded to the main site, so in the end we're left with two arrangements of the same song, one arrangement(the "full version") by the first arranger, and another arrangement(a "simplified version") by the second arranger.   
« Last Edit: June 17, 2015, 05:21:38 PM by Tobbeh99 »
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