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Author Topic: [PC] Touhou 8: Imperishable Night - "quotRetribution for the Eternal Night ~ Imperishable Night"quot by Re  (Read 1284 times)

Zeta

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Submission Information:

Series: Touhou
Game: Touhou 8: Imperishable Night
Console: PC
Title: Retribution for the Eternal Night ~ Imperishable Night
Instrumentation Solo Piano
Arranger: Renaud Bergeron
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 04:59:34 AM by Khunjund »
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Khunjund

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I don’t know what’s going on with the “quot” parts in the title. Tried reuploading, but it didn’t fix it apparently.
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Latios212

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Sorry about that, you can disregard the topic title for now, we're aware of that and will be looking into it. I think something went funny with our latest SMF upgrade and you should be fine as long as the info's correct in the panel (looks like it is).
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ok so i'm not very qualified for this stuff but it should be "Touhou" as that's how it is on site, and "ZUN" to be consistent because that's what he refers to himself as. also i was told that it was "3/4, 3/4, 3/4, 2/4" but i'm not very well-versed in that stuff so you might also be correct.
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Static

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"3/4, 3/4, 3/4, 2/4"
This is essentially the same thing as 6/4+5/4. I feel like it's easier to just think 6+5, personally. or put it in 11/4

mastersuperfan

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there's also a huge difference in quality between 2000 songs and 2010 songs
The difference between 2000 songs and 2010 songs is 10 songs.

Khunjund

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ok so i'm not very qualified for this stuff but it should be "Touhou" as that's how it is on site, and "ZUN" to be consistent because that's what he refers to himself as. also i was told that it was "3/4, 3/4, 3/4, 2/4" but i'm not very well-versed in that stuff so you might also be correct.

Tōhō is proper Hepburn romanization (the most widely used standard) and Touhou isn’t conform with any official system. It’s so-called wāpuro rōmaji, used for converting text to kana using an input editor, and for ASCII compatibility. I would much prefer sticking to an official romanization scheme.

I’m not a fan of using nicknames or pseudonyms on sheets (I think it looks kind of unprofessional), so if I could keep the name as-is, I’d like that too.

As for the 6/4+5/4, I like it because of readability, and it happens to divide the phrases into neat blocks of 8 measures. (It lets me show off my Finale formatting skills as well.)
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WaluigiTime64

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As for the 6/4+5/4, I like it because of readability, and it happens to divide the phrases into neat blocks of 8 measures. (It lets me show off my Finale formatting skills as well.)
Gotta flex 8). You could still improve some formatting though, mainly with the addition of the "Piano" instrument marking for the first system (a formatting requirement for the website iirc, despite seeming unnecessary) and double barlines between mm.16-17 and mm.38-39 to demonstrate structural divisions in the music.

Also, have you attempted to play this? While it's pretty in-line with the typical transcription-ish arrangements on the site, I'd still recommend going through it, looking for and adjusting parts that might seem like very large and fast jumps, or otherwise might not work well for the hands. Similarly, some of the slurs indicate phrasing that seems odd or outright impossible without careful pedaling, but that also depends on the performer and their interpretation of the sheet.


I mainly came here to talk about this though:

Tōhō is proper Hepburn romanization (the most widely used standard) and Touhou isn’t conform with any official system. It’s so-called wāpuro rōmaji, used for converting text to kana using an input editor, and for ASCII compatibility. I would much prefer sticking to an official romanization scheme.
While this is a logical approach, many publications will favour "common name" when applicable, over any sort of typical translation convention (consider the difference between translation and localisation). "Touhou" is by far the more commonly used romanisation, and is used on the site as a result.
Additionally, it seems to be co-developer Twilight Frontier's preferred romanisation, given some Apple Music listings for the official Touhou fighting game OSTs (ZUN himself has no preference, for the record).
Lastly, Forbidden Scrollery (which has been localised into English officially) doesn't often mention its full name on book listings, but typically has "Touhou Suzunaan ~ Forbidden Scrollery" written when it does.
Even beyond all that though, you've referred to the game title as "Tōhō 8: Imperishable Night", when the numbering system isn't part of the official titles either (at the time, I believe). "Tōhō Eiyashō ~ Imperishable Night" would be more appropriate, but most English-speakers do not use that name, similar to "Tōhō"/"Touhou". It's best to keep things consistent and use the common name ("Touhou 8: Imperishable Night").

I’m not a fan of using nicknames or pseudonyms on sheets (I think it looks kind of unprofessional), so if I could keep the name as-is, I’d like that too.
While I understand this point (and it has been brought up in the past), the credit "ZUN" seems to always be used for composer credits in both Team Shanghai Alice and Twilight Frontier music albums, so composer credit here should probably be given based on this consistency (also consistency with the site).
Obviously he has also used his real name on some occasions, but typically "Team Shanghai Alice" is used for copyright-related credits, and "ZUN" is used for music credits and collaborative works, such as printworks and fighting games, as well as any derivative work. This last point in particular should be taken into account, as all NinSheetMusic scores are derivative works.

As an aside, it's also odd to consider professionalism here, given the nature of the series (particularly in regards to unofficial works such as this).

...as another aside, the series tab on the site should be "Touhou Project", but that's for the staff to deal with.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 05:22:06 AM by WaluigiTime64 »
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Static

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  • Wow you didn't even transcribe the intro (you don't have to)
  • You could add those extra 16th notes from the other voice in m10 RH beat 4 and similar spots - those notes in particular stick out to me in the original track, but of course make that lick a bit harder to play.
  • There's some more stuff going on in m20/24/42/46 RH beat 1.
  • For the game title, I also agree that it should be spelled "Touhou" because it is the most common spelling for this particular game (other times I would disagree, like Ōkami for example). But in this case, most people call it Touhou, including the officially-published spin-off game localizations on PS4/PC (such as Genso Rondo).
  • The composer name could go either way. I often see on here people putting nicknames in quotes (like Daisuke "Pixel" Amaya), but we don't always do that. In my opinion, ZUN or Jun'ya Ota are both acceptable, but I have a preference for ZUN so that it matches the rest of the sheets on site.

Great arrangement

Hiroari_Till_When

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Yeah, I'd go for Touhou and ZUN, for one simple reason: standardization. Everyone and their dog are already using Touhou instead of Tōhō, and someone searching for tracks from these games would enter the former, and not the latter, in a search bar.

Still, thanks for covering Retribution for the Eternal Night, I've always loved that theme (it's my favorite from IN along with Mystia's)... unlike 99% of the musicians doing covers.
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Khunjund

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  • Wow you didn't even transcribe the intro (you don't have to)
  • You could add those extra 16th notes from the other voice in m10 RH beat 4 and similar spots - those notes in particular stick out to me in the original track, but of course make that lick a bit harder to play.
  • There's some more stuff going on in m20/24/42/46 RH beat 1.
  • For the game title, I also agree that it should be spelled "Touhou" because it is the most common spelling for this particular game (other times I would disagree, like Ōkami for example). But in this case, most people call it Touhou, including the officially-published spin-off game localizations on PS4/PC (such as Genso Rondo).
  • The composer name could go either way. I often see on here people putting nicknames in quotes (like Daisuke "Pixel" Amaya), but we don't always do that. In my opinion, ZUN or Jun'ya Ota are both acceptable, but I have a preference for ZUN so that it matches the rest of the sheets on site.

Great arrangement

As WaluigiTime64 pointed out, I feel like this arrangement is already kind of stretching what’s playable, so I’m a bit reluctant to add even more 16th notes, and to make the runs I’ve simplified with quintuplets go on for an extra octave like in the original, etc. I hope that’s alright.

I’ve addressed the other issues.
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Static

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As WaluigiTime64 pointed out, I feel like this arrangement is already kind of stretching what’s playable, so I’m a bit reluctant to add even more 16th notes, and to make the runs I’ve simplified with quintuplets go on for an extra octave like in the original, etc. I hope that’s alright.
Sounds good to me then. The other changes look good, so I'll go ahead and approve.

mastersuperfan

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- What do you think about restriking the LH on beat 5 of m2/4/6/etc. instead of tying it over from beat 4? The LH is providing a constant rhythmic driving force, so I think it feels a bit odd/empty when it suddenly doesn't restrike on those beats.
- Beats 4.5 and 5.5 of m18 are also dyads and have notes under them. Did you omit these intentionally? I don't think they'd be particularly hard to play, since they're just eighth notes. (Same for m40)
- In m21-22 RH, the bottom note should be Bb on beat 2 and Ab on beat 3.
- On m22 RH beat 4, the G should be an octave lower.
- On m22 RH beat 4.5, the lower note should be a Bb instead of a A.
- I'd consider removing the Eb on m22 RH beat 5.25. I think I hear where you're coming from—I hear an Eb an octave lower there, but it's faint and doesn't really sound coupled to the melody note as a dyad. To me, the melody note sounds like it's unharmonized, and I think not having the Eb in the sheet would reflect that better.
- In m21-24 RH, the eighth notes off the beats are also dyads with notes under them. I think they're playable enough since there will be pedal usage during this section, but if you want to leave them out for playability, that's fine too.
- The A's in m21/23 LH beats 4-6 should be G's.
- The F's in m22/24 LH beats 1-3 should be G's.
- On m21/m23 beat 6, I think it would make more sense for the Eb to be in the LH than in the RH, since the LH is in better position to play it and since it's part of the chromatic ascending line in the LH.
- Really don't like how cramped m24 is... but it's also tricky to avoid. You could try splitting up m23 and m24, perhaps like so (although in this case, you end up with m23 as a one-measure system—this is just one possible example I came up with on the spot):
Image

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At the least, if you don't change the distribution, I'd recommend at least making m24 a bit wider so that the accidentals aren't colliding so much with the notes.
- Any particular reason the F in the RH is struck on m38 beat 4 instead of on m39 beat 1 like in the original?
- Double barline at the end of m38 for the section change?
- For m43-46, same feedback as m21-24.
- Ignoring the RH chords on beats 4.25 and 4.75, this is what I hear for m46 beats 4-5:
Image

[close]
However, given that LH beat 3.75 is also an Eb, the Bb on LH beat 4 seems fine to me, since restriking the Eb would be difficult.
- I feel like the sheet should be mf from the beginning. Starting off at mp gives the wrong impression about this piece, IMO (makes the beginning seem softer/more lulled than it really is). That said, it also allows for the progression up to mf later on, so... up to you.
- Move the forte in m32 up to beat 4 of m31, since that's where the dyad strikes?
- You're already at forte in m32-37, and then in m38 you crescendo to... forte again in m39?
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there's also a huge difference in quality between 2000 songs and 2010 songs
The difference between 2000 songs and 2010 songs is 10 songs.

Khunjund

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- What do you think about restriking the LH on beat 5 of m2/4/6/etc. instead of tying it over from beat 4? The LH is providing a constant rhythmic driving force, so I think it feels a bit odd/empty when it suddenly doesn't restrike on those beats.

It’s playable, but I find it tiring at that tempo, and I like the little variety the syncopation gives.

- Beats 4.5 and 5.5 of m18 are also dyads and have notes under them. Did you omit these intentionally? I don't think they'd be particularly hard to play, since they're just eighth notes. (Same for m40)

I did away with those to make legatio by hand easier and to lighten the texture ever so slightly.

- In m21-22 RH, the bottom note should be Bb on beat 2 and Ab on beat 3.

Done.

- On m22 RH beat 4, the G should be an octave lower.

I’m pretty sure it’s at the octave where I have it.

- On m22 RH beat 4.5, the lower note should be a Bb instead of a A.

Done.

- I'd consider removing the Eb on m22 RH beat 5.25. I think I hear where you're coming from—I hear an Eb an octave lower there, but it's faint and doesn't really sound coupled to the melody note as a dyad. To me, the melody note sounds like it's unharmonized, and I think not having the Eb in the sheet would reflect that better.

Done.

- In m21-24 RH, the eighth notes off the beats are also dyads with notes under them. I think they're playable enough since there will be pedal usage during this section, but if you want to leave them out for playability, that's fine too.

I’d rather leave them out to avoid jumping around and make legato easier.

- The A's in m21/23 LH beats 4-6 should be G's.

Done.

- The F's in m22/24 LH beats 1-3 should be G's.

Done.

- On m21/m23 beat 6, I think it would make more sense for the Eb to be in the LH than in the RH, since the LH is in better position to play it and since it's part of the chromatic ascending line in the LH.

It kind of messes me up to play two notes with the left in the middle of the arpeggio pattern, and I think the fingering is kind of gauche (C-Eb dyad with 2-1, then bring 2 over to En?), whereas in the right hand the eighth note gives me time to move my hand down, and the left hand can continue its motion upwards more fluidly (2 on C, 1 on En, 2 on F).

- Really don't like how cramped m24 is... but it's also tricky to avoid. You could try splitting up m23 and m24, perhaps like so (although in this case, you end up with m23 as a one-measure system—this is just one possible example I came up with on the spot):
Image

[close]
At the least, if you don't change the distribution, I'd recommend at least making m24 a bit wider so that the accidentals aren't colliding so much with the notes.

Done. (By the way, you can limit the size of an image by typing
Code: [Select]
[img width="#" height="#"][/img] like that, inside the tag.)

- Any particular reason the F in the RH is struck on m38 beat 4 instead of on m39 beat 1 like in the original?

To put emphasis on the syncopated D being held into the next bar.

- Double barline at the end of m38 for the section change?

I don’t usually use double bars unless there’s a major shift in character. The double bar at the beginning of measure 25 is because of the key signature change (sheets I’ve seen usually have single bar line for time signature changes, and double bar line for key signature).

- For m43-46, same feedback as m21-24.

I made the same modifications.

- Ignoring the RH chords on beats 4.25 and 4.75, this is what I hear for m46 beats 4-5:
Image

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However, given that LH beat 3.75 is also an Eb, the Bb on LH beat 4 seems fine to me, since restriking the Eb would be difficult.

I think my left hand is correct, here, but I changed the right-hand chords.

- I feel like the sheet should be mf from the beginning. Starting off at mp gives the wrong impression about this piece, IMO (makes the beginning seem softer/more lulled than it really is). That said, it also allows for the progression up to mf later on, so... up to you.

That’s one of my issues with video game music: when it’s all kind of the same dynamic throughout. When that’s the case, I kind of try to exaggerate the mood, and while the beginning is also driving, it does feel like more of a lull comparatively to the rest of the piece to me. Also, I don’t like starting a piece with mf (in the words of Alan Belkin: “You might as well just write nothing in that case. Think about it: if you give a sheet with no dynamic indication to someone, what’s he going to play?”).

- Move the forte in m32 up to beat 4 of m31, since that's where the dyad strikes?

Done.

- You're already at forte in m32-37, and then in m38 you crescendo to... forte again in m39?

Yea, you crescendo throughout that measure towards the climax of the phrase (F-D dyad), then immediately fall back to regular forte. I shortened the hairpin to have it end on that note, instead of looking like it carries on to the next measure.

Thank you for the feedback.
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mastersuperfan

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Looking good! One last thing: can you highlight the measures on page 3 and go to Utilities > Music Spacing > Apply Note Spacing? It looks like m26-29 didn't get spaced properly when the measure distribution was adjusted.
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there's also a huge difference in quality between 2000 songs and 2010 songs
The difference between 2000 songs and 2010 songs is 10 songs.
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