Pokemon Showdown!

[Roz~]

1: Espeon is now Bold.

2: Payback would ruin the point of even having a Dark type move in the first place. Because, if Machamp is hit by a significantly strong Psychic type, it won't even have a chance to use it, especially with No Guard (not to mention, that, in some cases, Machamp may move before the target). No Guard was my second choice, but it's crazy to use unless I have guarenteed speed and attack most of the time. Flame orb JUST to get the Guts boost is against what I had the ability for.

3: Actually, Quick Claw is a great item, especially with low speed Pokemon (I've always used it in the games, from Crystal onwards). Choice Scarf locks the user into using one move, which is entirely against the point of trying to attack opponents in a logical way. Giga Drain would make Ludicolo less effective against fire-types (and other types), giving only one move to damage them.

4: I'm not going for a Haxorous with Superpower/Outrage-style moves. You seem to be forgetting the main purpose for this team: it's not just to smash through the opponent (which results in imbalance, which allows the opponent to literally sweep us)...

5: Yes, I'm using Hyper Beam. The move that can smash through opponents and rip apart those with terrible Sp. Defense. Metagross's Defense (and slightly lower Sp. Defense) allows me time to recharge, if I don't use it just to finish off the opponent's last Pokemon.

Time to test the team out and possibly adjust based on results!

1- That's good.

2- Machamp is slow. It will move after Psychic types regardless. That's why people use Payback. Also if you fear you're going to get ohko'd, put some Evs in HP. And really, if you're going for Dynamic Punch you /need/ No Guard. Use Close Combat/Drain Punch if you're going for Guts. Missing Dynamic Punch 4 times in a row is annoying as hell.

3- No. Quick Claw is not good. It's inconsistent. Also you don't need any other moves for fire types on Ludicolo because you have a water type move. The thing you don't seem to understand is that your Pokémon doesn't need to counter every single one of their threats, your teammates need to cover for one another. As Shado said, you're not going to let Machamp take a Psychic attack, you're going to switch out to Metagross because it resists the hit.

4- I'm not forgetting your "plan". However, by using a specially based Haxorus, you put yourself at a disadvantage because its Sp. Atk isn't as high as its Atk. I never said you should go for an all out offensive kind of Haxorus, I just said you should use physical moves. You can still make it bulky while using physical attacks.

5- I don't even know what to say about Hyper Beam, because it's just bad in competitive play. But hey, use it if you want. However, I don't recommend it. The only Pokemon that could abuse it is Porygon-Z, because of download boost, and you could even put Choice Specs on there. But yeah, it's inconsistent as well.

[BlackDragonSlayer]

Ok. I send in Scrafty, use Dragon Dance while you need to recharge and then use Drain Punch to 2HKO you.

If you send in Scrafty, you'll waste the turn when I'm recharging (since you don't know when I'm going to use Hyper Beam, meaning that you'd have to switch out after unless you were really lucky, somehow knowing that I was going to use it that specific turn). If you use Dragon Dance, it'll give me a chance to either switch out to Machamp, and THEN take you out, or take you out with another move. Metagross's defense stat, and only 1x weakness to fighting, would make Drain Punch less effective; since Scrafty hasn't taken any damage, it would do much to help you, either.

@Roz~ (I don't want to quote the entire post)
2: It would be better to contribute those EVs in Sp. Defense, which would make other stats imbalanced, which would make it useless either way, especially against non-psychic types as well as psychic-types.

3: Leftovers wouldn't work combined with Rain Dish if the opponent keeps switching out to their Vulpix with Drought, which I just had happen to me (Rain Dance only wastes a turn in that case). From personal use, Quick Claw has always been helpful: it adds unpredictability over your opponent and ignores Trick Room's effects; it can disrupt an opponent's strategy, and even a one turn advantage can turn the battle in your favor. If I keep switching out, I won't be able to damage opponents at all, meaning that I'll just be a sitting ducks to any of THEIR attacks, and hazards, meaning that I'll have to keep switching to Espeon (meaning that Espeon will soon faint).

4: None of the physical moves are as good without lowering multiple stats (both attack and defense for Superpower) or confusing you (Outrage). Aqua Tail makes no sense in most of the battles Haxorous will be in (possibly against Ice types?), as with other moves in the sections below.

5: Relying on Hyper Beam is terrible. Trying to use Hyper Beam against a Vulpix is terrible. It's not so much about abusing it, just using it properly, to whatever advantage it can give me, compared to other moves.


For example, during the battle, the opponent's Charizard's Fire Blast missed at least three times; although, when it hit, it was fatal (fainting ), it put the opponent in a case of mere probability.

[BonusPwnage]

We are such nerds. 

[BlackDragonSlayer]

We are such nerds. 

Yes, I agree. Exactly so.

[Roz~]

If you send in Scrafty, you'll waste the turn when I'm recharging (since you don't know when I'm going to use Hyper Beam, meaning that you'd have to switch out after unless you were really lucky, somehow knowing that I was going to use it that specific turn). If you use Dragon Dance, it'll give me a chance to either switch out to Machamp, and THEN take you out, or take you out with another move. Metagross's defense stat, and only 1x weakness to fighting, would make Drain Punch less effective; since Scrafty hasn't taken any damage, it would do much to help you, either.

@Roz~ Wall of text

The point of Shado's post = You switch out Scrafty to take any moves Metagross throws out at you, because it walls Metagross to an extent. Scrafty is fairly bulky, so it can take a Meteor Mash. It's not affected by Zen Headbutt, and Earthquake won't do to much either because it's not STAB on Metagross. You can then set up on Metagross while it has to recharge. There you go.

2: Actually, no. It's better to put EVs in HP rather than in Sp. Def. That way you can also take Physical hits better. However if you're worried you can dump some EVs in Sp. Def. Also putting EVs in Sp. Atk for HP Dark is a complete waste of time. Yoou could put more in Atk and Sp. Def if you were running Payback.

3: Lefties would still work because you'd get HP back even without rain. And who the hell sets up manual rain when the opponent still has a Vulpix/Ninetales/Ttar out? It's obvious it's a complete waste of time. And no. You don't understand the concept of switching out at all. You're not switching out so your Pokemon don't faint, you're switching out to a Pokemon that threatens your opponent's pokemon, and you go from there. Let's say your opponent has an Ice type out. You switch out to Metagross to tank the ice attack. Then, you know he's going to expect the Steel type move, so you think he's going to switch out to his fire type, and you go for Earthquake. Your opponent does just that, which means you catch your opponent's Pokemon on the switch and you KO it. Bingo. That's how predicting and switching out works. Also if you're so worried about hazards, add a rapid spinner in case your Espeon dies. Problem solved. About that Quick Claw comment: Yes, it adds "unpredictability" over your opponent. It can also screw you over if it doesn't activate when you want it to. Use it if you want, the point is the item sucks. I'm not the only person to say that either. Also even if you have Quick Claw, priority moves say hi.

4: Earthquake. Brick Break. Dragon Claw. Dual Chop. Night Slash. Oh wait, do these moves lower any of Haxorus's stats? Yeah, I didn't think so.

5: Yeah, it's bad. You should go for more coverage, even if it means going for Physical moves instead of Special ones. Earthquake and Zen Headbutt would be a good start.

[BlackDragonSlayer]

The point of Shado's post = You switch out Scrafty to take any moves Metagross throws out at you, because it walls Metagross to an extent. Scrafty is fairly bulky, so it can take a Meteor Mash. It's not affected by Zen Headbutt, and Earthquake won't do to much either because it's not STAB on Metagross. You can then set up on Metagross while it has to recharge. There you go.

2: Actually, no. It's better to put EVs in HP rather than in Sp. Def. That way you can also take Physical hits better. However if you're worried you can dump some EVs in Sp. Def. Also putting EVs in Sp. Atk for HP Dark is a complete waste of time. Yoou could put more in Atk and Sp. Def if you were running Payback.

3: Lefties would still work because you'd get HP back even without rain. And who the hell sets up manual rain when the opponent still has a Vulpix/Ninetales/Ttar out? It's obvious it's a complete waste of time. And no. You don't understand the concept of switching out at all. You're not switching out so your Pokemon don't faint, you're switching out to a Pokemon that threatens your opponent's pokemon, and you go from there. Let's say your opponent has an Ice type out. You switch out to Metagross to tank the ice attack. Then, you know he's going to expect the Steel type move, so you think he's going to switch out to his fire type, and you go for Earthquake. Your opponent does just that, which means you catch your opponent's Pokemon on the switch and you KO it. Bingo. That's how predicting and switching out works. Also if you're so worried about hazards, add a rapid spinner in case your Espeon dies. Problem solved. About that Quick Claw comment: Yes, it adds "unpredictability" over your opponent. It can also screw you over if it doesn't activate when you want it to. Use it if you want, the point is the item sucks. I'm not the only person to say that either. Also even if you have Quick Claw, priority moves say hi.

4: Earthquake. Brick Break. Dragon Claw. Dual Chop. Night Slash. Oh wait, do these moves lower any of Haxorus's stats? Yeah, I didn't think so.

5: Yeah, it's bad. You should go for more coverage, even if it means going for Physical moves instead of Special ones. Earthquake and Zen Headbutt would be a good start.

That wouldn't happen with Scrafty unless the opponent was psychic and knew exactly when to switch out, or just happened to switch out to it randomly. If Scrafty was already out prior, then why would I even be using Hyper Beam against it?

2: Metagross already has high defense, even with Hasty nature. If you have HP, but low Sp. Def, then it won't reduce the amount of damage done; so that would be rather pointless.

3: Because Charizard keeps fainting all the other Pokemon.
That's the thing; the opponents just faint the Pokemon either way. If I had Metagross out, then I couldn't do much against the ice Pokemon, and it would just freeze me, or the opponent could switch out to a Pokemon like Zoroark (or Charizard) and use Flamethrower. Unless the opponent doesn't have any better options, or is plain foolish, they're not going to do that...
That's why I don't rely on it. I don't build my entire strategy around a single thing; I'm varied. And not all opponents have those priority moves... but if you're mentioning it, that wouldn't matter either way, since, unless you used a higher priority move, the opponent would still go first.

4: I already have Earthquake and Dragon Claw. Dual Chop doesn't have as much power, although it strikes twice. Night Slash is a dark-type move. Brick Break is Fighting-type... Fire-type also does damage against Bug and Grass Pokemon, and isn't completely useless against ghosts...

5: I, again, don't rely solely on it... if I were going for a different motives, I would agree with you on all the points, but then again...

[Clanker37]

2: Metagross already has high defense, even with Hasty nature. If you have HP, but low Sp. Def, then it won't reduce the amount of damage done; so that would be rather pointless.

No it isn't. HP > Def/Sp. Def always! You are correct in that it does the same amount of damage, but you would have more HP to survive with and therefore go on longer than if you invested in Def/Sp.Def. And why one earth are you using a Hasty Metagross? Metagross has horrific speed anyway. Adamant is way better.

3: Because Charizard keeps fainting all the other Pokemon.
That's the thing; the opponents just faint the Pokemon either way. If I had Metagross out, then I couldn't do much against the ice Pokemon, and it would just freeze me, or the opponent could switch out to a Pokemon like Zoroark (or Charizard) and use Flamethrower. Unless the opponent doesn't have any better options, or is plain foolish, they're not going to do that...
That's why I don't rely on it. I don't build my entire strategy around a single thing; I'm varied. And not all opponents have those priority moves... but if you're mentioning it, that wouldn't matter either way, since, unless you used a higher priority move, the opponent would still go first.

Have you ever seen a Meteor Mash against an Ice type? Freezing rarely occurs anyway, so you're better off tanking the Ice Beam/Blizzard and predicting the switch and going from there. If your opponent goes into Charizard/Moltres/Air Balloon Fire type, then just go, "Worth a try" and switch into a Pokemon that can take a Fire attack, which you should have if you're running Metagross

4: I already have Earthquake and Dragon Claw. Dual Chop doesn't have as much power, although it strikes twice. Night Slash is a dark-type move. Brick Break is Fighting-type... Fire-type also does damage against Bug and Grass Pokemon, and isn't completely useless against ghosts...

Dual Chop is to break Subs and damage them in the same turn. Night Slash can dispose of Gengars and Shedinja gimmicks. Brick Break is pretty bad imo lol.

5: I, again, don't rely solely on it... if I were going for a different motives, I would agree with you on all the points, but then again...

Hyper Beam and all its variants are all really unreliable and can cost you the match. If you let a Scizor or Haxorus or Zoroark set up on you, it will be extremly difficult to beat them. And then you have to take out the rest of their Pokemon with a crippled team. There are lots of better moves out there.

I'm sorry if I'm intruding on this argument, I just wanted to prove a point :|

[Roz~]

That wouldn't happen with Scrafty unless the opponent was psychic and knew exactly when to switch out, or just happened to switch out to it randomly. If Scrafty was already out prior, then why would I even be using Hyper Beam against it?

2: Metagross already has high defense, even with Hasty nature. If you have HP, but low Sp. Def, then it won't reduce the amount of damage done; so that would be rather pointless.

3: Because Charizard keeps fainting all the other Pokemon.
That's the thing; the opponents just faint the Pokemon either way. If I had Metagross out, then I couldn't do much against the ice Pokemon, and it would just freeze me, or the opponent could switch out to a Pokemon like Zoroark (or Charizard) and use Flamethrower. Unless the opponent doesn't have any better options, or is plain foolish, they're not going to do that...
That's why I don't rely on it. I don't build my entire strategy around a single thing; I'm varied. And not all opponents have those priority moves... but if you're mentioning it, that wouldn't matter either way, since, unless you used a higher priority move, the opponent would still go first.


4: I already have Earthquake and Dragon Claw. Dual Chop doesn't have as much power, although it strikes twice. Night Slash is a dark-type move. Brick Break is Fighting-type... Fire-type also does damage against Bug and Grass Pokemon, and isn't completely useless against ghosts...

5: I, again, don't rely solely on it... if I were going for a different motives, I would agree with you on all the points, but then again...

That would freaking happen because it's called predicting and everyone who plays the game does that. Stop thinking no one tries to predict, or that people have to be "Psychics" to know when to switch. Prediction is an important skill to have, and that's what separate good players from bad players. I'm not saying this for fun, I'm saying this because it's true.

2: Before saying complete nonsense, learn to Damage Calc. Clanker said exactly what I would've said.

3: Your "the opponent could switch out" argument is the worst argument I've ever seen. You need to predict what your opponent's gonna do, even if it kinda looks like it's a tough thing to do. Otherwise, you're going to be so predictable it's going to be easy to beat you. About priority moves: that's why I said Quick Claw is pointless, because if it activates the turn your opponent goes for a priority move, then it was completely useless.

4: Oh my god do you not understand the concept of type coverage? -____- The point of running moves like Brick Break and Night Slash is to be able to beat different types. Also Jellicent says hi to your Fire type moves.

5: Then put more Evs in Atk. And yeah, Hasty for Metagross is horrible since you won't outspeed anything relevant. If you want to run Hasty, run Agilitygross. And even then Jolly > Hasty. If you really want to run a Mixed one, go for Naughty.

I'm sorry if I'm intruding on this argument, I just wanted to prove a point :|

Thanks for trying, but I don't think he'll ever get the points we're trying to prove.

[BlackDragonSlayer]

No it isn't. HP > Def/Sp. Def always! You are correct in that it does the same amount of damage, but you would have more HP to survive with and therefore go on longer than if you invested in Def/Sp.Def. And why one earth are you using a Hasty Metagross? Metagross has horrific speed anyway. Adamant is way better.

Have you ever seen a Meteor Mash against an Ice type? Freezing rarely occurs anyway, so you're better off tanking the Ice Beam/Blizzard and predicting the switch and going from there. If your opponent goes into Charizard/Moltres/Air Balloon Fire type, then just go, "Worth a try" and switch into a Pokemon that can take a Fire attack, which you should have if you're running Metagross

Dual Chop is to break Subs and damage them in the same turn. Night Slash can dispose of Gengars and Shedinja gimmicks. Brick Break is pretty bad imo lol.

Hyper Beam and all its variants are all really unreliable and can cost you the match. If you let a Scizor or Haxorus or Zoroark set up on you, it will be extremly difficult to beat them. And then you have to take out the rest of their Pokemon with a crippled team. There are lots of better moves out there.

Not always true: if your opponent's move is powerful enough, you'll still faint either way (but Sp. Defense, especially with many fire type moves, would reduce the damage done?). Metagross has high enough defense, but is more lacking in Sp. Defense. That's why I have speed...

If I switch out to another Pokemon, they won't be able to take a fire attack (Admiral Ackbar moment) of that magnitude!! Not even Ludicolo.

But it has a greater chance of missing, as each attack is counted seperately?

Hyper Beam can also win the match for you. If your opponent has high defense, but low Sp. Defense, then it'll slice right through it. If it's their last Pokemon, then the battle is most likely over. Hyper Beam isn't a good move to rely on or overuse, but it does have its uses...

@Roz~
That would be extremely unintelligent of them to do, then. If I had used a move like Brick Break, for example (assuming, from their perspective, that Metagross had it), combined with Metagross's attack, it would, most likely, do major damage, or even possible faint Scrafty. How does the opponent even know I have Hyper Beam if they:
a: Haven't fought me before.
b: If I had never used it in the battle before.
It's just a risky, and even foolish, gamble, not even "predicting."

2: Also read what I said...

3: Yet you just used it in the Scrafty example. If I "predict" what my opponent's going to do, I could get lucky, and win, or lose two or three more of my Pokemon. That's why I'm not predictable.
Well, I guess that's just "predicting"!! As I said, I don't rely on any one thing; THAT would make me obviously predictable, and give me a totally unreliable strategy.

4: Type coverage is why I have the moves that I do; if I had Brick Break or Night Slash on Haxorous, it would put me in a different direction than I'm trying to go for. Jellicent, at this point, is the least of my worries, as I've got Machamp (thank you HP Dark ) and even Espeon (Shadow Ball, despite the ghost type weakness) to deal with it, if possible. If Jellicent attacks Haxorous with Ice Beam, and I switch out to Machamp, it could possible hold against the move, and use HP Dark, or, if you prefer, Payback. Although the risk vs. reward for Payback is worse (greater chance of fainting before the move), I could use the EVs for Sp. Atk for Sp. Defense to supplement it.

[BonusPwnage]

My head is going in cirlces right now. I'm a fan of Pokemon, but I wouldn't call myself a Pokemaniac like you people!

[Nebbles]

Heh, competitive battling is a bit to wrap your head around at first. But if you really study it, it gets very easy after a while, no worries. It's fun!

[BlackDragonSlayer]

Heh, competitive battling is a bit to wrap your head around at first. But if you really study it, it gets very easy after a while, no worries. It's fun!

And *laugh laugh* there are lots of different opinions in battling!

[Nebbles]

Yep, that too.

[K-NiGhT]

speaking of battling, can someone put up the Pokemon Online server sometimes? I can't seem to get my computer to run Showdown....

[BlackDragonSlayer]

speaking of battling, can someone put up the Pokemon Online server sometimes? I can't seem to get my computer to run Showdown....

My computer can run Showdown, but after too many battles, it gets glitchy.