TWG Suggestions, Comments, and Discussion

[Mashi]

What?  No way, Maul Mart's going to be awesome.

Aside from that, Nakah's game is a better game.  Mine has plenty of bugs in it, it's still in the making, and Nakah created a very fun sounding concept with the light keepers.

Once you all begin playing more and more games though, an Item Game like this will seem less complicated then you originally thought, so just focus on having fun in the games you play, it's probably the best way to improve.

EDIT: I was just wolfed Night 1.

Spoiler

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[close]

[Jub3r7]

I've been reading through TWG I and II, I'm in the middle of III right now. But so far I've had a great idea for a TWG game! However, I would like to get at least 50 posts before I ever decide to make it, and to do that all I would have to do is play several games of TWG. But, before I play my first game of TWG, I want to read through all the past ones first... Well, this might take a while!! 

[KT]

I play this at the same forum as Mashi: we are always lovers together and it is funny. Anyway, I'd be glad to play the next game. Mashi's game is one that you'll often see on LLF and that is definitely beloved by much of us. So yeah, I think it would be fun to bring here.

[Mashi]

I always thought Shrugger and I were the only one's who liked loved? maybe adored... obsessed over Item Games.

Also, <3

[DrP]

So, I've created a new game using a basic outline that Mashi posted... so I took a look through the LLF creation guide and I have come up with a game sans items!

I wanna have someone experienced take a look at it (and if you're a LLF TWG player... I may have changed the rules around a bit)... I think it's fair with a 1:3 wolf/human ratio and I do have some curveballs in there!

[DrP]

So, since no one responded... I will post it here!

Master Wolf â€" A wolf that is Seer’d Green. Guards the Seal of the Fire
Wolf Shaman â€" Can Seer players
Brutal Wolf â€" If lynched, they can take down a player that voted for them

Ballot Rigger â€" PM’s the host each night with the name of a player that’s alive and prevents them their vote counting the next day. The Ballot Rigger can retract their PM the next day if new developments arise. They are in a semi-alliance with the Ã,me of Sol, but doesn't know who they are

Artisan â€" The Artisan has two jobs. The Artisan creates Soulful Masterpieces that are used to take the power away from a purple or orange player. Their other job is sending a PM to the host every night to see guess who the Ballot Ringer is going to prevent from voting. If the names match, the Ballot Ringer’s vote is meaningless. Guards the Seal of Wind
La Sainte - A seer with an unlockable special ability. When either the Ã,me of Sol or the Ballot Rigger send in a PM with the name of a Sealbearer, La Sainte can now see the true seering results (that means the Master wolf is a Red and the Clover is a Green)
Guardian â€" Self-explanatory. The Guardian can protect anyone but themselves for one night, and they can change people whenever they see fit

Clover â€" The Luck of the Irish is always on this one’s side. If the Brutal Wolf chooses this one to die with them, they don’t die. They are Seer'd Orange Guards the Seal of Earth
Human
Human
Human
Human
Human
Human

Ã,me of Sol â€" When a Player is lynched during the Day phase; the Sage of the Wind (Nayru) can revive them once and then they become a Human in name only and still will be Seer'd Purple. They will not count toward the Human count. They cannot be wolfed.

Winning Conditions:
Humans: Eliminate the Wolves
Wolves: Become Even in Number with the Humans
Ballot Rigger: See next post below
Ã,me of Sol: Same as Ballot Rigger
Specials: Same as Humans

[Mashi]

Well, I'm not very experienced, but if you would like, I would be happy to look at your game drpamplemousse.

EDIT Oh, ok, hehe.  I'll read over it right now then.

Aside from that though, I've been thinking a bit for a game that's somewhat based on dead players, since I'm sure Manti Rule can be a bit disappointing to many experienced players.  Of course, I don't think it's actually balanced right now, with the Wolf Painter and all, but it adds a whole new range of possibilities for the Wolves, which I think would make an interesting twist as well.  I think turning it into some kind of card flip (Where colors are revealed) may make it more balanced though, I need to think about it a bit more.

1. Wolf Shaman - Wolf with the powers of a Seer.
2. Wolf Painter - Sends the Host a PM with the name of a Player and a color.  During that Night Phase, that player will be seered as that color.  Can not paint self.
3. Wolf - Wolf with no special powers.
4. Seer - Sends Host a PM with the name of a player every Night Phase.  The Seer learns that players color at the end of the Night Phase.
5. Medium - Sends the Host a PM with the name of a player every Night Phase as well as up to two questions if wanted to.  That player will send the Host a PM of 500 caps or less to be relayed back to the Medium at the end of the Night Phase.
6. Guardian - Sends the Host a PM with the name of a player every Night Phase.  If that player is wolfed that Night Phase, the player will survive.  The Guardian can not guard themselves.
7. Human
8. Human
9. Human
10. Human
11. Human
12. Human

And yes, I probably will be trying to host this.  I don't plan on any detailed or creative story though.

[DrP]

Thanks Mashi!! Tell me what you think!!

Also, someone on LLE has to update some of the Roles, since there really isnt an explanation for about 75% of that (Im not sure if youre a mod over there)

I kinda like the painting aspect in your game (original and definitely can change tides quickly)

[Mashi]

Alright lets see now.

Wolves: They look good.

Master Wolf - Looks good.
Brutal Wolf - I would just suggest that the Brutal Wolf's ability can only target players who vote for him/her, since the Brutal Wolf could easily take down a Blue.  Though, I don't really like the Blues right now to be honest.  If the Brutal Wolf is forced to kill only player who voted for him/her, it would allow the Wolves to speculate for whether the unknown Blues were playing safe or not.
Wolf Shaman - Looks good.


Blues: Lots of stuff going on with the Drunken Seer.  It's too chance based, but aside from that the other Roles look good.

Artisan - The Artisan's purpose is probably going to be to protect the Blues because of the Wolf Shaman.  He/She also can take away the Ballot Rigger's power, but unless it has something to do with winning, it probably won't be much of a big deal.
Drunken Seer -Usually the idea of having the Drunken Seer was to have another Seer (Not Drunk) so that the alliance would have to determine which one produced true results.  Even with a 33% chance of being completely right, probability is against the human team, so the Drunken Seer probably won't be much use.  I would suggest changing the Artisan to a regular Seer and maybe changing the Drunken Seer a bit, such as less dependent on luck (For example, in some games at LLF with this Role, the Drunken Seer would get random results for the player he/she seered that weren't that players color and said color would stay that color if the Drunken Seer ever wanted to seer that person again.)  This way, games wouldn't just be based on who was seered what and players would actually have to form suspicions to learn which was the real Seer.
Guardian - Looks good.


Humans: They look good.

Clover - This Role seems interesting.  But will the Clover know he/she is the Clover?  If so, I think it would make things very interesting late game if we followed your set up without any changes.  Though, by the time that happens, I think things would be looking up to the Wolves, not sure, I'll have to think about this Role a bit more.
5 other Humans - Looks good.


3rd Party: To be honest, I think these Roles make the game a bit iffy.  In my opinion, I would prefer they be removed (Mostly the purples though) since they just complicate the game more than it should be.

Ballot Rigger - So are the winning conditions of this Role to correctly guess the Artisan?
Keeper of Earth - Unless the Wolves wolf themselves (Which probably won't happen since it could backfire greatly), this revives a definite Human.  If the Keeper of Earth dies, it would be redundant, since he/she would probably have claimed to the alliance and would be more like a switch of players, while if turning Human would add to the Human count.
Sage of the Wind - Ok.
Protector of Fire - It seems odd for a Role to revive a Wolf and then join the opposite team, especially if said player knows the Master Wolf.  The only problem I see with this Role is that if the Sage of the Wind turns out to be part of the Human team, the Humans would know when the Master Wolf is revived and lynch him/her again.  The only counter measure I see for this is if the Protector of Fire counterclaims as the Sage of the Wind, but even that can backfire if the Humans play right.  Though I may be wrong, I'll have to think more about this Role as well.

So my main points:
I feel there are too many power Roles.  More isn't always better, simple concepts can create a complex and fun game, without relying on luck.
The third party Roles need to have some kind of winning condition.  Usually the third party Roles in the games I've played stay out of the Wolf and Human business or take sides.  From what I remember, it was extremely rare for these Roles to help the Wolves, since Humans were more open and once these Roles lose their powers, they become useless.
I'm not sure what you meant by ratios at the end of your post, but I remember the guide saying one Wolf against a Blue and 2 regular Humans.  Of course, there are exceptions, but third party Roles complicate these things a lot, especially when it comes to reviving.
The Drunken Seer needs some work, it's too luck based.  The Clover may change things, but by the time that happens, it's likely that seerings probably wouldn't help.

I'll revise a bit more later, but for now, here's my two cents.


EDIT: Yeah, the Wiki became inactive some time ago.  I'll see what I can do, I'll at least try to get all the Role powers in.

[DrP]

Mashi's long dissertation on my game

Wolves: Fixed!

Blues: Drunken Seer given 50% chance of correct color, and will have maintained color if seer'd again (these colors will be preset at random, with half of the people with a right color and half of the people with a wrong color).
The Artisan will be able to now make Masterpieces nightly, to try and strip the powers of the Purple and Orange players, as well as block a Seering by the Wolf Shaman. So in the PM they guess who a single orange OR purple is and they guess who the Wolf Shaman is seering... if the Artisan has guessed someone in the past that the Wolf Shaman just guesses, it is blocked, too.

Greens: Clover will loose unscrambling of the the Seer's PM. They will now have another role.

Orange: Special Conditions to win added. Will be Seer'd Orange
Purple: Special Conditions to win added. Two Purples removed

Special winning conditions:
Three Seals have been marked on the Souls of three players: The Master Wolf, The Artisan and the Clover, with the Seals of Earth, Wind and Fire. It is the job of the Purple and Orange (separately) to guess the three "Sealbearers" to win the game. If powers are stripped by the Artisan, this prevents a chance of winning by the one with the power stripped.

Seem better, Mashi??

[Mashi]

Wolves: Looks good.
Blues: The Guardian conditions looks interesting, but I don't think it would work well in this game to be honest.  If the Wolves take the 50% chance of attacking a Blue, then even if it was blocked, they would just be able to wolf that player next Phase.  I prefer it being able to guard the same person every Night, but not able to guard himself/herself.  As for the Drunken Seer, even with the 50% of being right, there's still nothing that can make the results useful.  The Drunken Seer's results are still useless, I would suggest changing it to a regular Seer.
Humans: They look good.  But will the Clover know he/she is the Clover?  If so, it may help the Third Party a bit, but probably not enough.
Third Party: So are their victory conditions overriding victories?  As in, if either of them win, the game ends?  If so, then the Ballot Rigger could use his ability to cause a KitB and the Ame of Sol could use his to revive a player to continue the game for another Phase.  My only gripe though is that guessing 3 Roles correctly is harder than it looks.  Especially when this has to be done solo, including not getting lynched or wolfed.  I'm not sure on how to make both Roles more powerful without making them too powerful or too powerless.  Maybe alter their winning conditions to something a bit more easier?  Giving them the ability to seer?  Maybe allow them to have the ability to seer players the color they truly are (Such as Master Wolf being seered red by them instead of green) and have the Clover seered another color or even have their roled revealed to them if seered.
Of course, if their winning conditions aren't overriding victories, then they would claim to the alliance, and would just need to guess the Master Wolf (Unless the Clover doesn't know his/her Role).  As far as balance for this goes, they could easily help the Humans, so I think it would be a bit Human sided.  This would also make the Artisan's effect of canceling the Purple and Orange's powers redundant as well.
(Actually, I just realized that either Role could easily sneak into the alliance, then trade the names of the alliance member's Roles to learn who the Master Wolf is, so that definitely would be game breaking, they would have to have overriding victories.)

Third Party Roles usually are hard to make interesting and fair, especially when said Roles have to solo their way to victory, with little to no help.  I would suggest taking Ballot Rigger or Ame of Sol out to make things more easier to balance and make the game slightly less complicated.

[DrP]

So, here's what I'm going to do! I really didnt want to give all the power to the Blues, so that's why I made the drunken Seer

The Guardian will change to how it usually is, can guard a person until the guardian wants to change who they are guarding and they can't guard themselves
The Drunken Seer: Now La Sainte. La Sainte is essentially a Seer in the normal sense, until something happens. When an Orange or Purple guess a single Sealbearer, la Sainte can now get true seerings (master wolf is now red and the clover is now green)

The Clover: They WILL know their role, since they will have to know what they are "bearing". The Clover will be Seer'd Orange, but is a human at heart!

The Other Purple/Orange Group: Well, in Nakah's Lantern game, the strange man had to do it solo... it is basically the same thing, but there are two people vying for that title... once they guess the Sealbearers, the two Reds die, and if the third red is dead, the Orange and Purple automatically win, if not, the orange and purple lose. Also, the Ballot Rigger CAN be wolfed and lynched, the Ã,me of Sol can only be lynched and can't be wolfed (since it is a Soul after all)

[Mashi]

I think your game is just right now.  Sorry if any of my suggestions annoyed you or made you work any harder than you originally planned for.

Also, if it's alright with someone else, if they could at least quickly skim the game in case I missed anything, it would be nice.  Thanks in advance.

[DrP]

Alright! No problem... Grazie Mille!!!! Sono estremamente grato!!!

Well, once this who SFK fiasco dies down and the game ends, then I think this one might pass... I now have to write a good story (and I already have one in mind)

EDIT: I just finished the story... it is the best I've written.

I'll give you a hint. Longbow!

[SlowPokemon]

How about something like this?



Eleven players:
Wolf
Wolf
Seer
Human
Human
Human
Human
Human
Human
Human

You may be wondering why I only have ten spots, but eleven players. This is because one of the roles (randomly selected) will be played by TWO people. If a wolf role receives this, then the wolves are at an advantage. If a human does, well, there's an extra human on the board. Note that it is IMPOSSIBLE for the Seer to receive this boost. If one of the people who plays this role is lynched, the role WILL continue to be played out by the partner of the person. Therefore, there is an extra role on the field, but no one knows if the extra role is green or red. Note that even though it is "one" role, both persons playing the role CAN give a lynch vote and/or a wolf vote.

There is also an item given to a player that allows them to VIGI someone every night. This item can be passed on to another player. This will be given to a HUMAN.

With this many killings, it would be a short game, but oh, well. 

Please don't tell me it sucks because one of you wants to host, and don't want me interfering. If it really does suck, tell me that, though. I can change it. And I certainly want feedback.