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[ARCADE] Haunted Castle - "Miscellaneous Short Themes" by LeviR.star

Started by Zeta, December 10, 2018, 07:02:00 PM

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Zeta

Submission Information:

Series: Castlevania
Game: Haunted Castle
Console: ARCADE
Title: Miscellaneous Short Themes
Instrumentation Solo Piano
Arranger: LeviR.star

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LeviR.star


Timestamps for each (still working on verifying names):


List (in order on sheet)
00:00 - Dracula's Resurrection (Title Screen)

00:07 - Wedding March Tragedy (Introduction)

11:44 - Stage Clear (Boss Defeat)

03:25 - No Return (Intermission)

11:49 - Collapse of the Devil's Castle (Ending)

11:56 - Game Over

12:01 - Unknown
[close]



ATTENTION


If anyone has any suggestions to make this sheet more accurate/playable, please don't be afraid to speak out. I'm open to hear anything.

If you need me, I'll be thinking of a second sheet.

EDIT: Drew straws. Yoshi's Island DS it is.
Check out my Youtube channel for remixes and original music! LeviR.star's Remixes

Also check out my piano arrangements here on my PA thread! LeviR.star's Arrangements

Khunjund

The last chord of measure 10 has A flat, not A natural.

The F double sharp in measure 21 should be spelled G natural (it's an A sharp dimished chord). You could also have the 8va line continue over measure 22, for consistency.

I don't hear the upper octave in measure 24.

If you want, you could add the echo for "Unknown".
Please stop making lists using hyphens.

LeviR.star

Quote from: D3ath3657 on December 11, 2018, 11:12:33 AMThe last chord of measure 10 has A flat, not A natural.

Ooh, glad you caught that. (For some reason I'm satisfied to hear an even more dissonant chord.) Thank you.

Quote from: D3ath3657 on December 11, 2018, 11:12:33 AMThe F double sharp in measure 21 should be spelled G natural (it's an A sharp dimished chord). You could also have the 8va line continue over measure 22, for consistency.

I was wondering about that, given that all the rest are thirds (but what do I know?). Fixed.

Quote from: D3ath3657 on December 11, 2018, 11:12:33 AMIf you want, you could add the echo for "Unknown".

Good idea; I've added pedal markings.

Quote from: D3ath3657 on December 11, 2018, 11:12:33 AMI don't hear the upper octave in measure 24.

Listening to it and noticing that the dominant instrument voice is an octave down, I get where you're coming from, but I personally still hear a voice on the top octave.

On the topic of octaves, I hear the LH playing octave dyads in "No Return (Intermission)", but I didn't know if it would be better to leave it as-is, or to somehow incorporate the top notes (perhaps by adding pedal markings to make it sound more connected?) I'm open to suggestions.
Check out my Youtube channel for remixes and original music! LeviR.star's Remixes

Also check out my piano arrangements here on my PA thread! LeviR.star's Arrangements

Khunjund

Quote from: LeviR.star on December 12, 2018, 10:08:21 AMGood idea; I've added pedal markings.

This is what I had in mind for the "echo":
Spoiler

[close]
But it's really up to you; I can easily understand why you might not want to do that.

Upon further inspection, depending on how you see this piece, I think the B flat could be an A sharp. The A flat could also be G sharp, but as it's more of a "random" chord used for effect, I don't think it's necessary. Maybe ask for someone else's opinion here.

Quote from: LeviR.star on December 12, 2018, 10:08:21 AMListening to it and noticing that the dominant instrument voice is an octave down, I get where you're coming from, but I personally still hear a voice on the top octave.

It could just be me, so that's fine.

Quote from: LeviR.star on December 12, 2018, 10:08:21 AMOn the topic of octaves, I hear the LH playing octave dyads in "No Return (Intermission)", but I didn't know if it would be better to leave it as-is, or to somehow incorporate the top notes (perhaps by adding pedal markings to make it sound more connected?) I'm open to suggestions.

You can add the octaves, but I wouldn't use a pedal marking, because that lower part gives me more of a non legato vibe.
Please stop making lists using hyphens.

LeviR.star

Quote from: D3ath3657 on December 12, 2018, 10:45:27 AMThis is what I had in mind for the "echo":
Spoiler

[close]
But it's really up to you; I can easily understand why you might not want to do that.

Oh, that's what you meant. I'll use that, good idea.

Quote from: D3ath3657 on December 12, 2018, 10:45:27 AMUpon further inspection, depending on how you see this piece, I think the B flat could be an A sharp. The A flat could also be G sharp, but as it's more of a "random" chord used for effect, I don't think it's necessary. Maybe ask for someone else's opinion here.

I'll leave it up to the updaters, because I'm not very sure about that myself.

Quote from: D3ath3657 on December 12, 2018, 10:45:27 AMYou can add the octaves, but I wouldn't use a pedal marking, because that lower part gives me more of a non legato vibe.

Alright, sounds good. Octaves added.
Check out my Youtube channel for remixes and original music! LeviR.star's Remixes

Also check out my piano arrangements here on my PA thread! LeviR.star's Arrangements

Libera

Oh hey it's another miscellaneous themes sheet; nice.

Just a few quick questions:  Is there any particular order to these themes? and have you had any luck on finding a name for 'Unknown' (do we know where in the game it plays, perhaps?)

Onto feedback:

Quote from: LeviR.star on December 26, 2018, 03:08:48 PMI'll leave it up to the updaters, because I'm not very sure about that myself.

I'd recommend keeping it as you have it currently.  I don't think there's any particular reason to change it and at the moment we have a nice chromatic descent in the bass that seems pretty sensible to me.

Quote from: LeviR.star on December 12, 2018, 10:08:21 AMI was wondering about that, given that all the rest are thirds (but what do I know?). Fixed.

I agree with you; I think you should write it as an F##.  These are all minor thirds and I think they should be represented in that way, if only because it's easier to read.

Quote from: LeviR.star on December 12, 2018, 10:08:21 AMListening to it and noticing that the dominant instrument voice is an octave down, I get where you're coming from, but I personally still hear a voice on the top octave.

I also do not hear the top voice you've written in here.  I can hear two voices, but not three.

Onto new stuff:

-I'm not sure that we need the top B in the semibreve in the left hand of bar 1 since you're indicating pedal anyway.  Also it means that you have a consistent two notes in the left hand lower voice there.
-I know I keep mentioning this, but could we have the 8va a little bit more to the left in bar 20 to better cover the notes?
-Do we need a pedal marking on the last bar?

Nice work; I always like seeing these sheets. :P

Khunjund

Quote from: Libera on December 28, 2018, 02:49:38 PMI'd recommend keeping it as you have it currently.  I don't think there's any particular reason to change it and at the moment we have a nice chromatic descent in the bass that seems pretty sensible to me.

It doesn't particularly bother me as is, but I don't think this is a good argument for keeping it as such. B>A#>An>G# is a "nice chromatic descent" all the same.

Quote from: Libera on December 28, 2018, 02:49:38 PMI agree with you; I think you should write it as an F##.  These are all minor thirds and I think they should be represented in that way, if only because it's easier to read.

Personally, I don't find it harder to read with G, especially considering that there's another G right before. However, even disregarding that, I strongly disagree here: it's clearly an F#7(b9) chord, which should be written with a G.

Also, for the record, the "they're all minor thirds" argument could apply horizontally just as well as it does vertically. E.g. you don't seem particularly concerned that the melodic "minor third" from G to A# isn't being respected.

Quote from: Libera on December 28, 2018, 02:49:38 PM
  • Do we need a pedal marking on the last bar?

For what it's worth, it does make a difference, so you might as well include it if you're going to use precise pedal notation throughout the piece.
Please stop making lists using hyphens.

Libera

Quote from: D3ath3657 on December 28, 2018, 05:16:57 PMIt doesn't particularly bother me as is, but I don't think this is a good argument for keeping it as such. B>A#>An>G# is a "nice chromatic descent" all the same.

I really don't think this matters but for the record I just meant that generally chromatic descents are written with flats and ascents with sharps.

Quote from: D3ath3657 on December 28, 2018, 05:16:57 PMPersonally, I don't find it harder to read with G, especially considering that there's another G right before. However, even disregarding that, I strongly disagree here: it's clearly an F#7(b9) chord, which should be written with a G.

Also, for the record, the "they're all minor thirds" argument could apply horizontally just as well as it does vertically. E.g. you don't seem particularly concerned that the melodic "minor third" from G to A# isn't being respected.

Sure, but from my point of view something always looks weird when you're using diminished chords and this I personally think it makes more sense with keeping the intervals consistent horizontally.  I don't think that it's as cut and dry and definitely saying this has to be a Gn or an F##.  The only reason I brought it up really is that Levi had originally written it in a way that I think is perfectly valid.

Levi can see what we've both said anyway so I'll leave it to him to decide for this particular point.

LeviR.star

Quote from: Libera on December 28, 2018, 02:49:38 PMJust a few quick questions:  Is there any particular order to these themes? and have you had any luck on finding a name for 'Unknown' (do we know where in the game it plays, perhaps?)

- these fanfares are ordered by a few factors: A.) The order they appear in-game, B.) The order they appear in most YouTube playlists, and C.) The order the appear in official albums published under Konami
- I talked to some guys on a Castlevania Discord server from a subreddit, and they couldn't find where it was used in-game. In fact, from what they found, most resources on the web list it as "Unknown" already, so they thought it'd be best if I left it as what most people knew it as.

Quote from: Libera on December 28, 2018, 02:49:38 PM-I'm not sure that we need the top B in the semibreve in the left hand of bar 1 since you're indicating pedal anyway.  Also it means that you have a consistent two notes in the left hand lower voice there.
-I know I keep mentioning this, but could we have the 8va a little bit more to the left in bar 20 to better cover the notes?
-Do we need a pedal marking on the last bar?

- sure, I can get rid of that B
- if someone knows how to set a default for the 8va so I don't have to do this every time someone brings this up, I'd like to hear it. I'd hate to think that I've been inputting 8vas and 8vbs wrong this whole time and someone has pointed it out only recently. Besides, should it be giving anyone the impression I'm not trying to cover the whole measure?
- I don't see any reason to keep it other than it helping the echo that D3ath suggested earlier

Quote from: Libera on December 28, 2018, 02:49:38 PMI also do not hear the top voice you've written in here.  I can hear two voices, but not three.

Really? I don't know why you guys aren't hearing it, but I insist that they're there. Someone please help me out here.

Files updated.

The clashing feedback
Quote from: Libera on December 28, 2018, 02:49:38 PMI'd recommend keeping it as you have it currently.  I don't think there's any particular reason to change it and at the moment we have a nice chromatic descent in the bass that seems pretty sensible to me.

I agree with you; I think you should write it as an F##.  These are all minor thirds and I think they should be represented in that way, if only because it's easier to read.

Quote from: D3ath3657 on December 28, 2018, 05:16:57 PMIt doesn't particularly bother me as is, but I don't think this is a good argument for keeping it as such. B>A#>An>G# is a "nice chromatic descent" all the same.

Personally, I don't find it harder to read with G, especially considering that there's another G right before. However, even disregarding that, I strongly disagree here: it's clearly an F#7(b9) chord, which should be written with a G.

Also, for the record, the "they're all minor thirds" argument could apply horizontally just as well as it does vertically. E.g. you don't seem particularly concerned that the melodic "minor third" from G to A# isn't being respected.

Quote from: Libera on December 30, 2018, 04:11:40 AMI really don't think this matters but for the record I just meant that generally chromatic descents are written with flats and ascents with sharps.

Sure, but from my point of view something always looks weird when you're using diminished chords and this I personally think it makes more sense with keeping the intervals consistent horizontally.  I don't think that it's as cut and dry and definitely saying this has to be a Gn or an F##.  The only reason I brought it up really is that Levi had originally written it in a way that I think is perfectly valid.

Levi can see what we've both said anyway so I'll leave it to him to decide for this particular point.
[close]

How about this: I notate the accidentals the way I had them originally (F## and descending flats). Another updater can verify if I'm right.

I hate to say this, but I've been getting frustrated these past few months with how the people giving me feedback can't seem to agree with one another. I don't even know who to believe anymore, and I feel as if, with what little theory knowledge I hold, it just looks like I'm showing favoritism towards someone if I go with what they say over someone else's advice. People telling me what I've been doing wrong only after I've cranked out 225+ sheets as consistently as I can is one thing, but updaters/arrangers arguing over my submissions is another.

Please understand, this is bothering me.
Check out my Youtube channel for remixes and original music! LeviR.star's Remixes

Also check out my piano arrangements here on my PA thread! LeviR.star's Arrangements

Latios212

Quote from: LeviR.star on January 01, 2019, 10:15:55 AMI hate to say this, but I've been getting frustrated these past few months with how the people giving me feedback can't seem to agree with one another. I don't even know who to believe anymore, and I feel as if, with what little theory knowledge I hold, it just looks like I'm showing favoritism towards someone if I go with what they say over someone else's advice. People telling me what I've been doing wrong only after I've cranked out 225+ sheets as consistently as I can is one thing, but updaters/arrangers arguing over my submissions is another.

Please understand, this is bothering me.
There are a lot of gray areas when arranging and for the most part no one's demanding you change anything unless it's explicitly incorrect (like a wrong note). Take the time to consider what people are saying and choose what feels right to you, because it's ultimately your sheet. That's not favoritism.
My arrangements and YouTube channel!

Quote from: Dudeman on February 22, 2016, 10:16:37 AM
who needs education when you can have WAIFUS!!!!!

Spoiler
[close]
turtle

Khunjund

Quote from: LeviR.star on January 01, 2019, 10:15:55 AMI hate to say this, but I've been getting frustrated these past few months with how the people giving me feedback can't seem to agree with one another. I don't even know who to believe anymore, and I feel as if, with what little theory knowledge I hold, it just looks like I'm showing favoritism towards someone if I go with what they say over someone else's advice. People telling me what I've been doing wrong only after I've cranked out 225+ sheets as consistently as I can is one thing, but updaters/arrangers arguing over my submissions is another.

Please understand, this is bothering me.

I'm going to try and explain this as thoroughly as I can.

The debate here, best I can tell, is essentially between a "classical theory" point of view (me) and a—perhaps more "modern", could we say— "intuitive" point of view (Libera). While the latter still has roots in classical theory (e.g. "flats go down"), it's very contemporary, seeing that it places much more emphasis on visual recognition. In contrast, Western music (and yes, this is still Western music even if it was composed by Japanese people) was traditionally written with a much greater focus on harmony, and tonality in general, which very frequently meant that, among a multitude of other things, descending chromaticism would be written with sharps, ascending chromaticism with flats, etc., depending on the key and the harmonic context. In contrast, you might choose to go for a more modern look by prioritizing simplicity (e.g., again, "flats go down"), at the cost of what could be considered analytically/historically "correct" notation.

This is how I view both of the areas in question:

G vs. F double-sharp (Be warned, strong opinions may follow.)

The harmony is very clear here: it's an F sharp dominant minor ninth chord, which should be written F#, A#, C#, E, G. Using Fx here makes no sense, because it forms an augmented octave with the root of the chord, and, unlike a minor ninth, this interval does not occur in standard tertian harmony—which is what we are dealing with here. Additionally, since this is an arpeggio pattern, which is just a way of melodizing chord structures, the harmonic spelling should be favoured even more. The spelling Fx is simply incorrect here, and the only reason for using it is because you value the aesthetics of consistent minor third dyads over correct orthography.

Small digression
Quote from: Libera on December 30, 2018, 04:11:40 AMSure, but from my point of view something always looks weird when you're using diminished chords and this I personally think it makes more sense with keeping the intervals consistent horizontally.  I don't think that it's as cut and dry and definitely saying this has to be a Gn or an F##.  The only reason I brought it up really is that Levi had originally written it in a way that I think is perfectly valid.

You're not arguing in favour of keeping the intervals consistent horizontally; you're arguing in favour of keeping them consistent vertically. Yes, all the dyads sound like "minor thirds", but if you view both of the parts that form these dyads as separate melodic lines, then all of the intervals each line makes are also "minor thirds"—which clearly isn't what's being represented, since the top line has a G followed by an A# (which is a second) and, in your version, a G followed by an Fx (also a second, though this one is more confusing, in my opinion, because a repeated note is written with a descending interval in an otherwise ascending passage). A notation which adheres strictly to the "they're all minor thirds" interpretation (which I'd argue is basically an atonal viewpoint—this being the reason why I'm so vehemently against it in such a clearly tonal setting) would look like this:


[close]

Descending flats vs. sharps

This is just the "classical" vs. "intuitive" argument, as I put it. Flats are perhaps simpler to read when you have a chromatically descending line, but you could easily interpret the bass as implying harmony, and in any case, you're in B minor, which (considering the various forms of minor) contains the notes B, C#, D, E, F#, G, G#, A, A# as constituents. Bb and Ab are not only extraneous to this scale, but, in the perspective of classical analysis, also very far removed from it, which is why the sharps would be preferred in the classical tradition. To put it another way, Bach, Beethoven, or Chopin would've certainly written this passage using sharps, but someone like Messiaen or Ginastera might've used flats.



In any case, Latios is right: the final decision is yours to make.
Please stop making lists using hyphens.

FireArrow

The thing is, notation rules are very opinionated. You can write a D major chord with a G flat if you think it looks better. People might hate you, but it's your music and you can do whatever the fuck you want. When you get to issues that are less... mutually agreed upon, people tend to disagree, so don't get upset when that happens. If you want the "right" answer:

I'm a hard go with Death3657 here. Here's the rules of thumb I go by when picking accidentals:
1. Check harmony. Is this note a part of it? Pick the correct enharmonic spelling for that chord.
2. Harmony isn't relevant, yayyy chromaticism. Pick the option that looks the best (read: uses the least amount of accidentals possible), this is usually descending flats and ascending sharps.

Note: at the end of the day it's just about what's easiest to read
Some people like to skip rule 1 because they read music purely horizontally, don't do that tho.
Quote from: Dudeman on January 23, 2017, 05:35:59 PM
straight from the department of redundancy department

Latios212

Alrighty, finally found a few minutes to take a closer look at the actual things in question here...

For the ascending dyads, I'm strongly with using G here for a few reasons:
- The left hand notes are A# C# E G which, while equally spaced, are impossible to actually notate as equally spaced. Consider writing out a C fully diminished chord for one hand to play using the notes C Eb Gb Bbb C. While the pairwise intervals are all minor thirds, you can't make it appear like that on the page by respelling any of C/Eb/Gb/Bbb (like using F# or An instead) - you will end up with an augmented second regardless. Same idea here. While for the majority of cases I recommend keeping the consistent intervals intact, there are some cases like this where it isn't possible to do so nicely. Whatever you end up doing, the same pitch should be spelled the same way consistently.
- [Most important to me] The dyads stack on top of the top note used by the last one. With an Fx the sheet looks like both notes change between those two dyads while they're actually pivoting on the G in a fashion similar to the rest.
- Ease of reading (G is in the key signature, Fx is pretty far off).

For the LH of the last fanfare, I'd personally recommend using the flats to descend. I think it'd be easier to read and it doesn't look to me like there's a super strong harmonic relationship between the LH and the melody. (Though take that with a grain of salt, I'm just looking at the PDF while sitting on a bus.)
My arrangements and YouTube channel!

Quote from: Dudeman on February 22, 2016, 10:16:37 AM
who needs education when you can have WAIFUS!!!!!

Spoiler
[close]
turtle

FireArrow

wait i wanna look at it and give me 3rd cent now

m21: G natural. This same chord progression is at the end of BWV 854 (prelude) and is spelled ivo -> I which is known as an imperfect authentic cadence.

m26: That is  100%, an A#. Like I'm so adamant about this and I'll be upset if this goes through as a flat what.... It's literally i->V->i7 why on earth does the fact the they're descending even matter here?

Quote from: Latios212 on January 01, 2019, 02:45:59 PMit doesn't look to me like there's a super strong harmonic relationship between the LH and the melody.

listen that passage, then play b -> F# -> b7 on a piano. It's the exact same sound. TBH you can hear the A# over the Bb alone, it's sounds very much like a dominant chord.

m26: idk, it's a fakeout chord and I'm not familiar enough with that kind of thing to know if G# or Ab matters. I'm leaning G# because since the third is omitted (a potential B sharp ew) the notes you're playing are a lot closer to your home key.
Quote from: Dudeman on January 23, 2017, 05:35:59 PM
straight from the department of redundancy department