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Author Topic: [Wii] The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess - "Orchestra Piece #2" by Zeila  (Read 551 times)

Zeta

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Submission Information:

Series: The Legend of Zelda
Game: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
Console: Nintendo Wii
Title: Orchestra Piece #2
Instrumentation Solo Piano
Arranger: Zeila
« Last Edit: September 14, 2020, 07:52:19 AM by Libera »
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Zeila

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Take two. Also I think the official title is "The Legend of Zelda: Orchestra Piece (Teaser Music) #2" but I left it as Orchestra Piece #2 to keep it consistent with #1 (and it is way less redundant)
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Hey great work bringing this back for a second bout! I'm happy to say it looks fairly promising, at least from my perspective anyways.

I have some formatting things for you and some textural ideas:

- Maybe it's something I don't know about the sostenuto markings but shouldn't the sostenuto releases be below the LH staff where the actual sostenuto markings are? Seems confusing otherwise.
- I'd be inclined to just put the RH of measure 5 in the bass clef. Keep it in the upper staff, but use a clef change to get rid of some of those ledger lines.
- Fermatas in measure 1 are too tight and not centered.
- Tip: If you angle the beam in the pickup beat at the very beginning I find it makes it look more dynamic- more pizzaz.
- Based on the sound of the original, I'd look for a way to hold the high Bb under the fermata in measure 1 longer than the other notes. There are different ways to accomplish this; but I'd consider this to be under the arranger's creative jurisdiction. You decide how to do it.
- Staccatos are often clashing with noteheads or other things. Measure 5 (which I already mentioned altering and will probably not be a problem afterwards), 7, 8, 10, 12, 15, 16, 17, 20, etc. Just a lot of articulation clashes to clear up.
- You've got accidental double-flats (pardon the pun) in measures 49-50 LH. Resize the layer 1 flats to 1% and slide them over the notehead so they're hidden within. That's my latest solution anyways.



- I feel like there's a bunch of places where your sheet would benefit from slur usage. Runs especially (e.g. short runs measures 35-37).
- Measures 19-23 you could probably actually raise the notes into their proper octave and have the RH cross over into bass/contrabass land to punch out your low timpani spots instead of trying to cram them into the ostenato hand. Just efficiency of movement for maximum result. Generally it's not so many notes constantly repeating as it is just shots from the trombones. If you were able to have the extra notes only for the shots, that would likely be more effective than relying on accents alone for the punch.
- Actually if there was a great place to use accents I feel like measure 1 would be good. Not all of these chords sound equal in the original. Accents would be a great way to call the most prominent ones on the downbeats forward.
- I feel like writing the C# in measure 16 RH as a Db would be better. It's a 5th with the Ab and all C's in the LH in that measure are natural.
- I could be wrong about this because I haven't analyzed it super carefully yet but the run in measure 26 seems fishy... As though the woodwinds never actually go that low for one thing. Again, unless I slow it down and find I'm wrong, it almost doesn't even seem like they're in triple rhythm at all- just straight 16ths. But that's something I won't swear by until I take a closer listen.
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Zeila

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Hey great work bringing this back for a second bout! I'm happy to say it looks fairly promising, at least from my perspective anyways.
Thanks!! I think it's certainly much better than last time and part of that is thanks to all the help I got throughout the years

- Maybe it's something I don't know about the sostenuto markings but shouldn't the sostenuto releases be below the LH staff where the actual sostenuto markings are? Seems confusing otherwise.
- Fermatas in measure 1 are too tight and not centered.
- Staccatos are often clashing with noteheads or other things. Measure 5 (which I already mentioned altering and will probably not be a problem afterwards), 7, 8, 10, 12, 15, 16, 17, 20, etc. Just a lot of articulation clashes to clear up.
I believe most of these are just Finale 26 file issues but if you look at the pdf then it should look fine (except for the uncentered fermata). I ended up getting rid of the fermata in the LH and the RH one seems fine to me. Thankfully the articulations can be auto-fixed by anyone with Finale 25 (which I know Libera has)

- You've got accidental double-flats (pardon the pun) in measures 49-50 LH. Resize the layer 1 flats to 1% and slide them over the notehead so they're hidden within. That's my latest solution anyways.
Oh thanks for pointing that out. I usually just show a cautionary accidental on layer 2 and hide it with the accidental mover tool by using a blank spot for the alternate character

- I feel like there's a bunch of places where your sheet would benefit from slur usage. Runs especially (e.g. short runs measures 35-37).
I added more but if you have any more specific suggestions then I'll take it

- Measures 19-23 you could probably actually raise the notes into their proper octave and have the RH cross over into bass/contrabass land to punch out your low timpani spots instead of trying to cram them into the ostenato hand. Just efficiency of movement for maximum result. Generally it's not so many notes constantly repeating as it is just shots from the trombones. If you were able to have the extra notes only for the shots, that would likely be more effective than relying on accents alone for the punch.
I don't like the transition from m22 to 23 as much with the octaves raised, so I'll leave it at the current octave. I did end up adding extra notes on the accented parts though, so thanks for the suggestion!

- I could be wrong about this because I haven't analyzed it super carefully yet but the run in measure 26 seems fishy... As though the woodwinds never actually go that low for one thing. Again, unless I slow it down and find I'm wrong, it almost doesn't even seem like they're in triple rhythm at all- just straight 16ths. But that's something I won't swear by until I take a closer listen.
I think there are triplets, or at the very least there are more notes than just straight 16ths. I also changed the pitches of some of those notes

Thank you for the feedback! I implemented your other comments and fixed the layer directions and rests in m7-8 too
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Libera

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Hey, sorry for the wait on this one.  This is quite the tricky piece!

-You might want to mess around with the notes in pick up.  The tonality (??) of the gliss doesn't feel like it's really being captured by just a Dm chord.  I can try and come up with a suggestion if needed.
-You only wrote the Bb hanging around at the end of bar 1 but I hear a C F G Bb chord hanging around.  (I hope that makes sense haha).
-Not sure about the G on beat 1.5 of bar 7/11 in the left hand.  It's kind of hard to tell but sounds like it could be an F to me.  I can hear a G very faintly in that bar but it sounds like a different part.
-Similarly unsure about the same G in bar 8/12/15.  Sounds like it could also be an F or it just doesn't move.
-The same Gs in bar 9/13 sound like Fs to me.
-You have a rest colliding with a note in bar 14.
-I think the Db/Ab in bar 16 would be better written as C#/G# since they're over a D and an A.
-Just saying that the G at the end of bar 16 does actually sound like a G to me, unlike the previous ones.
-Do you want to stop the sost at the start of 17?  The lower pedal sounds like it continues through to the start of 18 in the original.
-The harmony in 17-18 sounds scrunchier (to use the technical term) than you've written in towards the end of that phrase.  I think you're missing Abs on beat 4 and 4.75, an F on beat 4.5 and a Gn on beat 1 of bar 18.  I think we should also use G#s rather than Abs in 17-18 also, which may require some fancy formatting to get the Gn and G# together.
-I'm not sure about the left hand run in bar 18.  It's really hard to play and doesn't really capture the glissando all that well in my opinion.  Maybe you could try something a bit more like in the pick-up, or just omit the glissando and have the left hand join in with the  tremolo chord?  Either of those would likely work better.
-Definitely break the beam between beats 1 and 2 in the right hand of bar 22.  It's really not clear that those are two separate lines at the
moment.  Also, having those stabs be accented whereas the far louder trumpet line is only given staccatos seems weird to me.
-If you're taking the timpani at the ends of 20 and 22 etc, it sounds like G -> D to me rather than A -> E (which would make more sense with the harmony).  If you're not taking the timpani there, I'd suggest taking the timpani because it sounds kind of odd at the moment.
-The layer 2 rest in 25 should be below the staff, not above it.
-Is there any reason why the ending of bar 22's left hand is different to the endings of 20, 24 and 26?
-In bar 26's right hand, the flute piccolo thing sounds like it play B C D E semiquavers on beat 2 and then trills B <-> C for the bar.  I think another flute maybe joins in part way through the bar afterwards, but I don't hear what you've written in at all.
-Bars 33 to 34 has a sus 4 resoltution thing going on so I'd suggest adding in As to the left hand chords in 33 and G#s to the ones in 34.
-In the second layer of bar 40 I don't hear the last A semiquaver.  Also, a similar thing happens in bar 36 that you didn't write in.
-Why has the second layer disappeard in 39 and 41?  I thought it was quite fun and helps to keep the middle of those bars more interesting.  It certainly feels weird to drop it out after including it beforehand.
-The second layer in the left hand of bar 47 sounds like it starts F E D C (descending) rather than B C D C.
-The second half of bar 50 has a Bb over C sound to it (rather than just Bb), so you might want to change the left hand arpeggio to match that.
-The bass in 51 to the end should descend A -> G -> F -> Eb.  (The chords are A -> A7/G -> F -> F7/Eb -> A.)  I'm not entirely sure what parts you're following at this point to make the left hand since you seem to mix and match a lot, but it's really important to get the bass notes right or the harmony sounds completely different.  Maybe try reworking this left hand section.
-You could try also tremolo-ing with the right hand chord at the very end since I think the ending will sound quite weak with just the left hand roll.
-Is there are reason for using Italian at 19 and English at the start?  I know sometimes it's because the Italian words are standardised (no one is going to write 'slow down' rather than 'rit') but feels a bit odd here.  Unless there's a reason I don't get?

Hope some of that helps!
« Last Edit: August 11, 2020, 10:34:43 PM by Libera »
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Zeila

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Hey, sorry for the wait on this one.  This is quite the tricky piece!

-You might want to mess around with the notes in pick up.  The tonality (??) of the gliss doesn't feel like it's really being captured by just a Dm chord.  I can try and come up with a suggestion if needed.
That's okay, thanks for looking it over in depth!! I updated the pick-up

-You only wrote the Bb hanging around at the end of bar 1 but I hear a C F G Bb chord hanging around.  (I hope that makes sense haha).
To me it sounds like all of those notes stop at different times where the F is the first to go and the Bb lasts the longest. I decided to just have the entire RH chord (with the addition of a C) be a quarter note while the LH stayed the same

-Similarly unsure about the same G in bar 8/12/15.  Sounds like it could also be an F or it just doesn't move.
Not too sure about that, but since it's similar to m7/11 I'll change it to F

-The same Gs in bar 9/13 sound like Fs to me.
It's also hard to tell with this one but I'm leaning towards G. Maybe someone else could offer their own opinion

-I think the Db/Ab in bar 16 would be better written as C#/G# since they're over a D and an A.
That makes more sense, done

-Do you want to stop the sost at the start of 17?  The lower pedal sounds like it continues through to the start of 18 in the original.
You're right, I changed it to the start of m18 although I could move it to the end of m17 instead

-I'm not sure about the left hand run in bar 18.  It's really hard to play and doesn't really capture the glissando all that well in my opinion.  Maybe you could try something a bit more like in the pick-up, or just omit the glissando and have the left hand join in with the  tremolo chord?  Either of those would likely work better.
That's fair. I tried doing something more like the pick-up but it didn't work out, so I went with another tremolo

-Definitely break the beam between beats 1 and 2 in the right hand of bar 22.  It's really not clear that those are two separate lines at the
moment.  Also, having those stabs be accented whereas the far louder trumpet line is only given staccatos seems weird to me.
Done, and I decided to add marcatos to the trumpet line except for m26

-If you're taking the timpani at the ends of 20 and 22 etc, it sounds like G -> D to me rather than A -> E (which would make more sense with the harmony).  If you're not taking the timpani there, I'd suggest taking the timpani because it sounds kind of odd at the moment.
It does sound odd to me but I still hear the timpani as A -> E, and changing it to G - > D seems even weirder to me but maybe that's because I'm used to hearing it the other way through Finale playback. I'm more sure about the E though, so I'll change the A's to G's

-Is there any reason why the ending of bar 22's left hand is different to the endings of 20, 24 and 26?
I did that to continue with the lower RH notes for the first four measures, but I'll just leave it out

-In bar 26's right hand, the flute piccolo thing sounds like it play B C D E semiquavers on beat 2 and then trills B <-> C for the bar.  I think another flute maybe joins in part way through the bar afterwards, but I don't hear what you've written in at all.
I'm not confident about the notes but there's definitely some run going on there. I changed beat 2 as well some other notes in the run and beat 1 of m27

-Bars 33 to 34 has a sus 4 resoltution thing going on so I'd suggest adding in As to the left hand chords in 33 and G#s to the ones in 34.
Done. Also, after listening to that section again I don't hear the lower D's in m33 and parts of m34 so I changed the bass notes to E instead

-Why has the second layer disappeard in 39 and 41?  I thought it was quite fun and helps to keep the middle of those bars more interesting.  It certainly feels weird to drop it out after including it beforehand.
There wasn't a good reason for it so I added it in. I also made the lower D in the RH of m40 a G and changed the second layer throughout that section to make it more accurate, but if it's too difficult then I could omit beat 1 for the second layer, change it back, or do something else

-The second half of bar 50 has a Bb over C sound to it (rather than just Bb), so you might want to change the left hand arpeggio to match that.
I changed it, but if it sounds weird or out of place then I can try something else out

-The bass in 51 to the end should descend A -> G -> F -> Eb.  (The chords are A -> A7/G -> F -> F7/Eb -> A.)  I'm not entirely sure what parts you're following at this point to make the left hand since you seem to mix and match a lot, but it's really important to get the bass notes right or the harmony sounds completely different.  Maybe try reworking this left hand section.
Yeah you're right about the harmony sounding different. I mostly just used the horn part and tried to continue the part from m51/52 in m53/54. Things were changed

-You could try also tremolo-ing with the right hand chord at the very end since I think the ending will sound quite weak with just the left hand roll.
Sure thing. I also added an accented chord at the end to reflect the last timpani hit and so the tremolos aren't left hanging

-Is there are reason for using Italian at 19 and English at the start?  I know sometimes it's because the Italian words are standardised (no one is going to write 'slow down' rather than 'rit') but feels a bit odd here.  Unless there's a reason I don't get?
No there isn't, I changed the one at m19

Hope some of that helps!
Thanks once again for the corrections and suggestions! Everything else was updated too
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Libera

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It's also hard to tell with this one but I'm leaning towards G. Maybe someone else could offer their own opinion

Still sounds like an F to me but we can see what someone else thinks.

It does sound odd to me but I still hear the timpani as A -> E, and changing it to G - > D seems even weirder to me but maybe that's because I'm used to hearing it the other way through Finale playback. I'm more sure about the E though, so I'll change the A's to G's

It's not super easy to tell but this sounds better now.

I'm not confident about the notes but there's definitely some run going on there. I changed beat 2 as well some other notes in the run and beat 1 of m27

Yeah it sounds like another flute does a little run up to a B <-> C trill.  Sounds something like B -> C -> A -> trill to me.  I'm more worried that the way it's currently written is very difficult/awkward and just comes out of nowhere at little.  I think it would sound pretty good to just make the B into a minim and hold the trill for the second half of that bar.  It would also mirror what you wrote in for bar 34 nicely.

There wasn't a good reason for it so I added it in. I also made the lower D in the RH of m40 a G and changed the second layer throughout that section to make it more accurate, but if it's too difficult then I could omit beat 1 for the second layer, change it back, or do something else

Yeah I noticed that it was simplified when I looked at it earlier but didn't mention I didn't have a strong preference towards writing it out properly, but I probably like it more like this.  Although, the second to last note of bar 36 should be an A like it is in bar 40.


Yeah you're right about the harmony sounding different. I mostly just used the horn part and tried to continue the part from m51/52 in m53/54. Things were changed
Sure thing. I also added an accented chord at the end to reflect the last timpani hit and so the tremolos aren't left hanging

The ending looks much better now!  One thing I would say is that the metre might make more sense with the final hit being beat 1 of a new bar, and the tremolo going through beats 3 and 4.  You may need to adjust the distribution to do it, but I think it looks a lot cleaner.



Nice work on those edits!  (The other ones I didn't mention also.)  It's looking pretty good now, I think.

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Yeah it sounds like another flute does a little run up to a B <-> C trill.  Sounds something like B -> C -> A -> trill to me.  I'm more worried that the way it's currently written is very difficult/awkward and just comes out of nowhere at little.  I think it would sound pretty good to just make the B into a minim and hold the trill for the second half of that bar.  It would also mirror what you wrote in for bar 34 nicely.
Okay, done.

Yeah I noticed that it was simplified when I looked at it earlier but didn't mention I didn't have a strong preference towards writing it out properly, but I probably like it more like this.  Although, the second to last note of bar 36 should be an A like it is in bar 40.
Oops, fixed

The ending looks much better now!  One thing I would say is that the metre might make more sense with the final hit being beat 1 of a new bar, and the tremolo going through beats 3 and 4.  You may need to adjust the distribution to do it, but I think it looks a lot cleaner.
Thanks, and I think it does look cleaner now too.

Nice work on those edits!  (The other ones I didn't mention also.)  It's looking pretty good now, I think.
Thanks, I agree that it's looking better now! And thanks again for the meticulous check :3
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Libera

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Brilliant!  I don't think I have anything to say past sorting out the articulations so I'll just put my approval here.  Nice work.

About the articulations: from looking at your pdf I can see that you are positioning staccatos over the stems in cases where there are multiple layers (like in bars 35-41).  Is this intentional, or is it caused by v26 using it as a new default that you may or may not have noticed?  Personally, I prefer them centred over the notehead in all cases but this is also acceptable if it is intentional.  I will say though that it does look untidy having the end of the slur centred on the notehead below the staccato, which is instead centred on the stem.  For the purposes of the submission there's not much point in you fixing this because I'll have to alter it anyway, but it'd be helpful if you could let me know how you'd like it to look so that I know how I'm meant to be altering it.  (Even better if you upload a new pdf with this issue resolved so that I can see exactly how you want it to look!)

Hopefully that last paragraph wasn't too confusing but if you have any questions, let me know.

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About the articulations: from looking at your pdf I can see that you are positioning staccatos over the stems in cases where there are multiple layers (like in bars 35-41).  Is this intentional, or is it caused by v26 using it as a new default that you may or may not have noticed?  Personally, I prefer them centred over the notehead in all cases but this is also acceptable if it is intentional.  I will say though that it does look untidy having the end of the slur centred on the notehead below the staccato, which is instead centred on the stem.  For the purposes of the submission there's not much point in you fixing this because I'll have to alter it anyway, but it'd be helpful if you could let me know how you'd like it to look so that I know how I'm meant to be altering it.  (Even better if you upload a new pdf with this issue resolved so that I can see exactly how you want it to look!)
I think it is a new default that you could opt to change but I personally have no preference generally. I think for the purpose of this sheet though it is fine if you center it on the notehead while fixing the staccatos because of the centered slurs. Thanks btw!
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Re: [Wii] The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess - "Orchestra Piece #2" by Zeila
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2020, 12:49:15 AM »

Glad to see this one finally in good shape. Thanks Zeila, Libera, and JDMEK5 for the hard work on this one :)

I think it is a new default that you could opt to change but I personally have no preference generally. I think for the purpose of this sheet though it is fine if you center it on the notehead while fixing the staccatos because of the centered slurs. Thanks btw!
I will strongly advocate for staccatos centered over noteheads (I can explain more if needed, but if you have no preference here then let's go for it).

Other small things:
- Put the lower rests in m. 14 RH back on the staff
- I'd suggest flipping the tremolo in m. 18 LH
- Crescendo in m. 34?
- I feel like the section in m. 35+ needs a bit more punch. How about writing power chords instead of octaves in the left hand (adding the fifths)?
- Articulation should be below note in m. 47 beat 1
- Ped. markings at the end of the sheet are a little far to the right
- Left edge of crescendo is a little close to the fp in m. 55
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Re: [Wii] The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess - "Orchestra Piece #2" by Zeila
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2020, 01:46:17 AM »

Glad to see this one finally in good shape. Thanks Zeila, Libera, and JDMEK5 for the hard work on this one :)
haha yeah, thanks again to everyone who helped!

I will strongly advocate for staccatos centered over noteheads (I can explain more if needed, but if you have no preference here then let's go for it).
I changed it in the meantime although they'll probably have to be modified anyways because of v26. I am curious about your explanation for centering over noteheads though

- Put the lower rests in m. 14 RH back on the staff
- I'd suggest flipping the tremolo in m. 18 LH
- Crescendo in m. 34?
- I feel like the section in m. 35+ needs a bit more punch. How about writing power chords instead of octaves in the left hand (adding the fifths)?
- Articulation should be below note in m. 47 beat 1
- Ped. markings at the end of the sheet are a little far to the right
- Left edge of crescendo is a little close to the fp in m. 55
These are all good suggestions, done!
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Re: [Wii] The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess - "Orchestra Piece #2" by Zeila
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2020, 01:55:15 AM »

Looks great :) I will approve and let Libera handle the articulations.

I will strongly advocate for staccatos centered over noteheads (I can explain more if needed, but if you have no preference here then let's go for it).
I changed it in the meantime although they'll probably have to be modified anyways because of v26. I am curious about your explanation for centering over noteheads though
Of course! Here's a few of my reasons:
- Maybe I'm just used to it, but it's consistent with the rest of our sheets on site
- Visually distinguishes the staccato from the stem - so it doesn't look like an extension of the stem or a printing error
- If you have two layers and staccatos on both, they'll all be offset if you center around the stem as opposed to aligned if you center over the notehead
- Other articulations are centered around the noteheads (think: if you have an accent+staccato that would go over the notehead instead of the stem)
- Actually closest to the note it's attached to (consider if you have many beamed notes in succession).
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Re: [Wii] The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess - "Orchestra Piece #2" by Zeila
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2020, 07:54:52 AM »

Ok I've sorted out the articulations (which required a little more manual editing than normal since the pedal articulations didn't want to reset properly).  Also, I had to edit some of the slurs since they were weird in the pdf also, but hopefully that looks all fine now.

Accepted!

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Re: [Wii] The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess - "Orchestra Piece #2" by Zeila
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2020, 07:55:04 AM »

This submission has been accepted by Libera.

~Zeta, your friendly NSM-Bot
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