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What key/time signature is this song in?

Started by The Deku Trombonist, March 24, 2013, 03:27:01 PM

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FireArrow

Quote from: Dudeman on January 23, 2017, 05:35:59 PM
straight from the department of redundancy department

Jompa

Quote from: FierceDeity on July 20, 2014, 01:33:36 PM1. By position on the ionian (i.e. major) scale. Dorian starts on the supertonic (2), phrygian starts on the mediant (3), lydian starts on the subdominant (4), mixolydian starts on the dominant (5), aeolian starts on the submediant (6), and locrian starts on the leading tone (7). So, want to play G mixolydian? Same notes as C major, starting on G. Want to play C# locrian? Same notes as D major, starting on C#. This is what I was told to be the "correct" way of thinking of it, because it considers the modes in context, but as long as you understand where they come from, I don't see the harm in using this next method for convenience:

2. By notes raised or lowered. Lydian has one note raised from major (4), mixolydian has one note lowered from major (7), dorian has two notes lowered (7, 3), aeolian has three notes lowered (7, 3, 6), phrygian has four notes lowered (7, 3, 6, 2), and locrian has five notes lowered (7, 3, 6, 2, 5). As long as you know why these notes are lowered (typically along with the order in which they are lowered), I see no problem doing it that way for quickness, especially considering what happens with writing key signature.

There are technically 2 options for writing key signature in modal music. You can write the key of the root "major" (i.e. C major for G mixolydian), or you can write in the closest related major or minor key of the same letter name (i.e. C major for C lydian and mixolydian, C natural minor for C dorian, phrygian, and locrian). According to my professors, both approaches are acceptable. However, what I see most frequently is the former, which I believe is what Jompa suggested. If you write the key signature in that way, then way #2 for thinking about modes is most convenient, as it tells you which notes to raise or lower with accidentals in relation to the major or minor key signature you've given it.
I'm really sorry, but I disagree to most of this.
You seem to treat the modes like they've spawned (for lack of better word) from what you refer to as "the root", but that is not how to think of modes. If this was about modal scales, then you would be on to something, but it sounds like you have mixed the two up, which is pretty understandable, and really common. (sorry if you haven't and I've misunderstood, but here comes an explanation anyways):
This is easy to mix up because the modes share the same names as their respective modal scales, and therefore it's easy to think they're the same sometimes, like: mixolydian is first and foremost simply a scale, but a song could be basing it's entire harmonic structure upon it, and in that case it would be in the mixolydian mode.
But: if you were writing a song in C ionian and then suddenly the dominant chord G major popped up, and you wanted to write the scale that fits the key signature using G as a starting point, then yes, you would be writing the mixolydian scale, but you can't say the song suddenly is in the mode of G mixolydian. It still is C ionian mode, because C is the tonal center, and the only thing that can change that is a modulation. Chord progression is not enough.
^This is sorta a reply to your #1 explanation, where you sound the most like you are mixing up the two.
Your #2 explanation makes the most sense out of your post, but it still seems you think of that "root" as the tonic.

The reason I bothered reacting to this is because this is actually pretty crucial when arranging a song that uses modes - I wouldn't have heard straight away that that song was using mixolydian if I was thinking about it from a different "root" than what is actually the tonic. If that was how it worked modes wouldn't exist!
The reason you can even hear everything that is going on in the music is because everything is a specific interval away from a tonal center (the tonic). So that's why we have to think about it from that tonic! It could even change the mode in the song, without it having to count as a modulation at all, and then thinking about it from that "root"-thing would just be bad.

The right way to think about modes is to treat them like key signatures. (i'll come back to the notation of them though)
If a song is in G mixolydian then the tonal center is G major, and the underlying scale that will be used for at least the majority of the piece (unless it changes mode or modulates) will be the G mixolydian scale (G major scale with the minor seventh). This has no relation to the C major scale in any way, and therefore it's G we should be/are thinking about when listening to/arranging/composing music in G mixolydian.
And the absolute correct way of notating the key signature of a song that is in a mode is; by not actually paying attention to the mode, and base it of whether it is major or minor out of the tonic (for the same reasons as above actually) (though that other method is used as well).

btw should be noted that modes isn't limited to the church modes (the ones that spawn out of the major scale). There are a whole bunch more.
Birdo for Smash

Maelstrom


mikey

Quote from: maelstrom. on July 20, 2014, 02:58:49 PMI just read that and got a headache.
Ya my piano teacher explains it much better
unmotivated

Maelstrom

I'm hoping to take a music theory class at my local college. Hopefully I'll understand it then.

FireArrow

Quote from: Jompa on July 20, 2014, 02:56:20 PM~snip~

Then why is, say, A minor, written with the key signature of C major rather than A major? I really don't understand what your saying, how can mixolydian mode be minor or major if both of which already are a mode (aeolian and ionian respectively.)

You seem to be saying modes are all their own scales and should be notated as such, but if that was your argument, wouldn't it be more logical to notate D mixolydian with one sharp?

I feel like I'm just misunderstanding your point, but I can't think of any different way to interpret what your saying.

Quote from: Dudeman on January 23, 2017, 05:35:59 PM
straight from the department of redundancy department

Jompa

Quote from: FireArrow on July 20, 2014, 03:26:24 PMThen why is, say, A minor, written with the key signature of C major rather than A major? I really don't understand what your saying, how can mixolydian mode be minor or major if both of which already are a mode (aeolian and ionian respectively.)
Well, now you're treating "major scale" (which is the same as the ionian scale) and "major tonal gender" as the same thing.
Major (as in the tonal gender) refers to wether the tonal gender of the tonic is major or minor, which is only determined by the third. If the third in the tonal center's scale is major it's major, while it's minor if the third is minor. All modes that uses a major third (example: ionian, dominant phrygian, mixolydian b6, etc.) are major, while all modes that uses the minor third (example: aeolian, dorean, phrygian etc.) are minor. Some like to think of locrian as "diminished", but whatever.
A quote from what I wrote above:
Quote from: Jompa on July 20, 2014, 02:56:20 PMthe absolute correct way of notating the key signature of a song that is in a mode is; by not actually paying attention to the mode, and base it of whether it is major or minor out of the tonic
^I am ofc referring to the tonal gender when I say that it should be based of whether the tonic is major or minor.

QuoteYou seem to be saying modes are all their own scales and should be notated as such, but if that was your argument, wouldn't it be more logical to notate D mixolydian with one sharp?
Actually, I'm saying the opposite. Half of my post actually is about how this is not the right way to think.

QuoteI feel like I'm just misunderstanding your point, but I can't think of any different way to interpret what your saying.
I guess this section is the main point:
Quote from: Jompa on July 20, 2014, 02:56:20 PMThe right way to think about modes is to treat them like key signatures. (i'll come back to the notation of them though)
If a song is in G mixolydian then the tonal center is G major, and the underlying scale that will be used for at least the majority of the piece (unless it changes mode or modulates) will be the G mixolydian scale (G major scale with the minor seventh). This has no relation to the C major scale in any way, and therefore it's G we should be/are thinking about when listening to/arranging/composing music in G mixolydian.
I just wanted to point out that you always have to think from the tonic, even if the song is using some mode, because that is exactly what we already do when we're listening to the music! Listening after that "root" that Fierce was talking about is impossible.
Birdo for Smash

FireArrow

Thank you for clarifying, now your argument actually makes sense to me. I don't have much else to say other than I was always taught to do it fierces way. As to which is correct I'll leave to you guys.
Quote from: Dudeman on January 23, 2017, 05:35:59 PM
straight from the department of redundancy department

FierceDeity

#308
Quote from: Jompa on July 20, 2014, 02:56:20 PMsorry if you haven't and I've misunderstood

Bingo, haha. I'm essentially in agreement with you. It seems like way #2 is almost exactly what you're saying, in fact. It was really just me misusing the term "root" because I couldn't think of a better word to describe "the scale from which the other modes are derived". I should've clarified that mode is determined by root in context of these scales, but yeah, we really don't disagree on this, haha. #1 is basically just an explanation of where the different modes come from, and for some reason my theory professors have thought that's a lot more important to focus on.

FireArrow

Quote from: FierceDeity on July 20, 2014, 06:25:29 PMBingo, haha. I'm essentially in agreement with you. It seems like way #2 is almost exactly what you're saying, in fact. It was really just me misusing the term "root" because I couldn't think of a better word to describe "the scale from which the other modes are derived". I should've clarified that mode is determined by root in context of these scales, but yeah, we really don't disagree on this, haha. #1 is basically just an explanation of where the different modes come from, and for some reason my theory professors have thought that's a lot more important to focus on.

Music theory books literally tell you that they're all based off of the same root. Its probably a similar issue with IT"S ALWAYS G# NOT Ab in A MINOR - where it's a good rule of thumb, but by no means how it actually works or appropriate for every scenario. This is totally awesome being able to absorb all this information for free :33
Quote from: Dudeman on January 23, 2017, 05:35:59 PM
straight from the department of redundancy department

Maelstrom

#310
So, I'll post here a lot, but what time signature is the first part in? 6/8, or 4/4?
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And the key signature for this? (:50 until 1:18)
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And the key here too? (:18 'til 1:02)
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And, finally, the time signature here too.
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Jompa

1. Well, what's arguably the correct way of doing it would be 12/8, but you can pretty much choose between that and swing 4/4, though that will probably mean a lot more work, as you'd have to write out every tuplet and stuff...
2. It's a bit crazy, but in the areas where it stays with what seems to be its tonal centers it seems to switch between G dominant phrygian and C minor as tonics, which are strongly tied together if you think the G dominant phrygian is just played over the dominant to C minor. So I'd write it in C minor.
3. This one modulates a bit. First you have the rhythmic strings and they play in C minor, but before long they modulate to E minor. In both these keys there is some dorian going on. Then it modulates into A minor and stays like that until it goes back to C minor on repeat.
4. It's normal 4/4 all the way. You just have to think that the tubular bells come on the second beat instead of the first.
Birdo for Smash

Maelstrom

This may sound simple, but what time signature is this in? I decided to finally finish it, but there seem to be way too many triplets for 4/4, so what is it? And is there a fast way to change all of your notes to match the change in the time signature?

Jompa

First, what song are you talking about?
And given what you wrote, I take it it's a "4-beat-a-measure with swing and a bunch of tuplets" kinda song. If this is the case it means that you can choose, but most people would want it in 12/8. So 4/4 is ok, and the fact that there are a lot of tuplets doesn't make it wrong, but as you might guess, 12/8 would in most cases look a lot better and be easier to read. There isn't a good way to change time signature at all really, and especially not in this case. It would literally be faster to start over.
Birdo for Smash

Maelstrom

Why didn't I post the song? *facepalm* I had it open and copied the link, but didn't paste it. Here it is: