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Messages - mastersuperfan

#1
Exciting!

Quote from: TheZeldaPianist275 on June 20, 2024, 06:22:58 PMTough to say no to a game with Xiao and N1P2. I am tentatively in but I'm running a marathon this weekend and for sure would not be able to pay attention till Sunday. MSF handle however you want—if you find someone and want to get the game going more quickly than that, no offense taken at all!

At the rate sign-ups are going, I'm not sure anyone else will be joining — I'm perfectly happy to wait a few more days to start. Let's plan on you joining and the game starting this Sunday (6/23). (That said, if anyone else is interested, do say so and we can work out something or at the least mark you down as a sub!)

One thing I want to poll everyone for: What phase change time works best for people? I was thinking along the lines of 8 PM EDT, but if this is inconvenient for too many people (i.e. too late for Europeans or too early for west coasters), I'm happy to move it up or down accordingly.
#2
All right, one more slot left!

Is anyone who signed up no longer able to play at this time?
#3
Nighttime!
#4
I don't think I was aware of this...
#5
TWG CXXIII: A Dance of Fire and Ice

Wolves:
1. Arcanine, the Fire Wolf: Every night, can choose one living player to burn permanently and (from N2 on) one living player to paint red for that night only. The painted target is seered red by the Fire Seer that night (even if they are also painted by the Ice Wolf).
2. Ninetales, the Ice Wolf: Every night, can choose one living player to chill permanently and (from N2 on) one living player to paint blue for that night only. The painted target is seered blue by the Ice Seer that night (even if they are also painted by the Fire Wolf).

Players who are either burned or chilled, but not both, have their vote cut in half and are not told that they are burned or chilled. Players who are both burned and chilled die at the end of the night phase. Wolves are affected by these status conditions in the same way as humans.

The wolves are not told each other's identity and have separate wincons, but they may win together if they are the last two players alive.

Humans:
3. Human
4. Human
5. Human
6. Human
7. Human

Special powers:
  • Sear, the Fire Seer: At the start of the game, a player other than the Fire Wolf is chosen at random to wield the power of the Fire Seer (i.e. the Ice Wolf could also be the Fire Seer). Each night starting from N2, can choose one living player to seer. Seers red players red (even if also painted blue by the Ice Wolf that night) and other players green.
  • Icier, the Ice Seer: At the start of the game, a player other than the Ice Wolf is chosen at random to wield the power of the Ice Seer (i.e. the Fire Wolf could also be the Ice Seer). Each night starting from N2, can choose one living player to seer. Seers blue players blue (even if also painted red by the Fire Wolf that night) and other players green.

If both seering roles go to the same player, or if both seering roles go to wolves, then the seer role distribution is rerandomized.

Win conditions:
  • The Fire Wolf wins when (a) the Ice Wolf is dead and they have at least 50% of the voting power (or inevitably will by the end of the night), or (b) the Ice Wolf is alive and all humans are dead.
  • The Ice Wolf wins when (a) the Fire Wolf is dead and they have at least 50% of the voting power (or inevitably will by the end of the night), or (b) the Fire Wolf is alive and all humans are dead.
  • Humans win when both wolves are dead.

Host clarifications:
- N1 start.
- Instas are OFF. Lynching is required (no lynch is not an option). Phantoms are in play.
- Real vote totals (e.g. including the halving from burn/chill) will be published following each lynch.
- Cardflips are off.
- First night phase will be 48 hours. Subsequent night phases will be 24 hours; day phases will be 48 hours.

---

Players:
1. Oricorio
2. BlackDragonSlayer
3. ThatHiddenCharacter
4. SpecsFlyer17
5. XiaoMigros
6. Nana1Popo2
7. TheZeldaPianist

Subs:
1.
2.
#6
The Werewolf Game / Re: TWG CXXIII Host May-Be's
May 23, 2024, 11:48:20 PM
Updated with changes — thanks for the feedback, Specs!

I decided to keep phantoms in play since I don't want to encourage a strategy of not voting, which I think otherwise might arguably have utility in a few niche cases.
#7
The Werewolf Game / Re: TWG CXXIII Host May-Be's
May 21, 2024, 01:10:38 PM
Quote from: SpecsFlyer17 on May 21, 2024, 12:49:34 PMJust a suggestion from my experiences- Perhaps consider turning Phantoms off for this game.
A few months ago, I hosted a game with vote manipulation and a critical lynch phase got heavily influenced by a phantom. There's nothing really wrong with it, but I think it sorta takes away from the spirit of vote manipulation games. Someone (I think BDS) mentioned that games with vote manipulation are often played without phantoms.
That's a fair point — I'll think about it and likely update accordingly, along with the next set of revisions to the game that I'm thinking about. (Most notably decoupling the vote reduction and the painting effect, since I think if they're combined then it's almost always optimal to just lynch someone who was seered red/blue.)

Quote from: SpecsFlyer17 on May 21, 2024, 12:49:34 PMAlso, are vote tallies published after a day phase? If they are, there could be some deduction done to figure out who is marked. Not sure if that's the direction you want or not.
They are not, since I think that gives away a little too much info for my taste (and also seems potentially exploitable). I think that lynch outcomes + KitBs being announced gives a decent enough amount of information for deduction purposes. Open to hearing other opinions though.

EDIT: on second thought I'll consider this more heavily

Quote from: SpecsFlyer17 on May 21, 2024, 12:59:06 PMOne other thought:

There may be a lot of "swing" in this game with seer roles potentially going to wolves on a random chance. I don't have enough experience to say whether this random role assignment unbalances the game or not, but I'd imagine having one seer role (and definitely two) assigned to a wolf would hurt the humans' shot at winning.
I think I prefer to keep the possibility that one of them is a wolf, so as not to let the game be dominated by an alliance between them. I'd be fine with adding a stipulation that the seers can't both be wolves, though.
#8
The Werewolf Game / Re: TWG CXXIII Host May-Be's
May 19, 2024, 01:24:01 PM
Quote from: Oricorio on May 19, 2024, 01:04:12 PMCan the Fire Wolf mark the Ice Wolf red or vice versa?
Yes, and they will lose half their vote accordingly. However, since players need to be marked both colors to be nightkilled, a wolf cannot be nightkilled unless they also choose to mark themselves for whatever reason. (Note that even though the Fire Wolf is seered red, they are not considered marked red unless they target themselves at night.)

Quote from: Oricorio on May 19, 2024, 01:04:12 PMAlso, what happens in an F3 with Ice Wolf/Fire Wolf/Human? The Human can't win in this situation as far as I can tell but can still have an influence in who wins
The game plays on until one of the win conditions is met. I think this is fine because the players may not know for sure whether both wolves are alive, so from every perspective it can be played as a F3 with 2 humans and 1 wolf.
#9
The Werewolf Game / Re: TWG CXXIII Host May-Be's
May 19, 2024, 12:10:49 PM
TWG CXXIII: A Dance of Fire and Ice

Wolves:
1. Arcanine, the Fire Wolf: Every night, can choose one living player to burn permanently and (from N2 on) one living player to paint red for that night only. The painted target is seered red by the Fire Seer that night (even if they are also painted by the Ice Wolf).
2. Ninetales, the Ice Wolf: Every night, can choose one living player to chill permanently and (from N2 on) one living player to paint blue for that night only. The painted target is seered blue by the Ice Seer that night (even if they are also painted by the Fire Wolf).

Players who are either burned or chilled, but not both, have their vote cut in half and are not told that they are burned or chilled. Players who are both burned and chilled die at the end of the night phase. Wolves are affected by these status conditions in the same way as humans.

The wolves are not told each other's identity and have separate wincons, but they may win together if they are the last two players alive.

Humans:
3. Human
4. Human
5. Human
6. Human
7. Human

Special powers:
  • Sear, the Fire Seer: At the start of the game, a player other than the Fire Wolf is chosen at random to wield the power of the Fire Seer (i.e. the Ice Wolf could also be the Fire Seer). Each night starting from N2, can choose one living player to seer. Seers red players red and other players green.
  • Icier, the Ice Seer: At the start of the game, a player other than the Ice Wolf is chosen at random to wield the power of the Ice Seer (i.e. the Fire Wolf could also be the Ice Seer). Each night starting from N2, can choose one living player to seer. Seers blue players blue and other players green.

If both seering roles go to the same player, or if both seering roles go to wolves, then the seer role distribution is rerandomized.

Win conditions:
  • The Fire Wolf wins when (a) the Ice Wolf is dead and they have at least 50% of the voting power (or inevitably will by the end of the night), or (b) the Ice Wolf is alive and all humans are dead.
  • The Ice Wolf wins when (a) the Fire Wolf is dead and they have at least 50% of the voting power (or inevitably will by the end of the night), or (b) the Fire Wolf is alive and all humans are dead.
  • Humans win when both wolves are dead.

Host clarifications:
- N1 start.
- Instas are OFF. Lynching is required (no lynch is not an option). Phantoms are in play.
- Real vote totals (e.g. including the halving from burn/chill) will be published following each lynch.
- Cardflips are off.
- First night phase will be 48 hours. Subsequent night phases will be 24 hours; day phases will be 48 hours.
#10
Great writeup, TZP. Thanks for hosting such a fun game!

I won't deny the amount of effort I put into this game but I'm surprised myself that everyone listened to me as much as they did :p — I guess after seeing davy and Oricorio pull their chaotic stunts and go down, maybe people didn't consider me as threatening as they were. It was also immediately obvious that Oricorio was trying to get in touch with literally everyone — it maybe wasn't obvious that I was too.

Quote from: TheZeldaPianist275 on April 30, 2024, 06:02:33 PMI was sort of pulling for Paper early on in N1, and I'm glad they were able to pull off such a clean victory. When I initially thought up this game—a faction game with zero investigative roles and therefore no way to 100% verify alignment, something I've personally never played before—I was afraid that no one would be able to coordinate at all because of mistrust, but thankfully that was a misguided fear. Of all three teams, Paper unquestionably did the best job coordinating, and I think their victory was well deserved.
I was also wondering how this would end up playing out — thankfully most people ended up being mostly truthful about their claims, which made the game fairly solvable. If more people had played like davy or Oricorio then maybe we would've devolved into chaos. With most people telling the truth, though, it was primarily a matter of getting in touch with everyone to figure out who was who — something that Oricorio did just one step ahead of me (and almost carried Scissors to victory for it), but I was able to leech a lot of that info from him.

Quote from: TheZeldaPianist275 on April 30, 2024, 06:02:33 PMIt's been my experience recently that most games have one mechanic that winds up going underused, and for this game, it was the nullifiers. N1 the nullifiers hit two revivers, and a nullifier who had targeted a reviver. N2 the two remaining nullifiers hit each other. And N3 the only nullification was part of Davy's summary execution. I was hoping for some more intense headgames to come out of those. Also, it's a shame (though funny) that two revivers were killed by their own vigis N1, but that goes without saying.
Even if the actual nulls didn't ultimately swing much, they definitely constituted a huge part of the strategizing I was doing! Figuring out how to get nulls off the vigis N2 (and ideally onto a reviver) was a tricky task. I would say it felt to be on equal footing with the other roles, especially since it's the only tool available to prevent a nightkill.
#11
lol nice testimonials
#12
looking back, I think it was a huge misplay for me not to consider ScissorsNullifier!Oricorio and ScissorsReviver!Specs as much as I should've — it's evident in hindsight that Specs (in topic + PMs) was pro-Oricorio for all of D1. I definitely should have had Toby shoot Specs instead of THC

ironically enough though, that maybe would have lost us the game, since Specs revived davy instead of Oricorio

a few curious questions I have left:

@Oricorio @SpecsFlyer17 out of curiosity, what was it that made you doubt K-NiGhT's claim? davy and I had our own reasons for knowing he was the real Scissors Vig, of course, but even THC and Toby were convinced from the main topic conversation alone that K-NiGhT was the real Scissors Vig. Was there something that K-NiGhT and/or davy said in PMs that threw you off? (also, at what point did Oricorio officially claim Scissors Nullifier to Specs?)

@Oricorio What was your plan for handling me down the line? You seemed awfully willing to give me free info D1 — was there a reason for that? When you said that there shouldn't be any remaining living Paper claims, did you actually think davy was Paper?

@therealmathguy if I hadn't contacted you, who do you think you would have nullified N2?
#13
Quote from: SpecsFlyer17 on May 01, 2024, 08:31:22 AMSo the game was scripted. Unbelievable.

Memes aside, I wonder how a variation of this game would work out where a given faction's powers only worked against it's beatable faction in RPS. Example, the Scissors vigi could kill any Paper role (and maybe Scissors roles), but it would not work against Rock players.

I think it might be a little broken for night abilities (I think that's why TZP didn't do it that way) but it might be really interesting for breaking KitBs in some way, or maybe 1v1 scenarios with two vigis left

I honestly feel like most rounds with this setup would end with either a kitb or a tie and that could be a cool way to avoid that while adding more strategy
#14
live footage of D2 lynch, colorized: https://youtu.be/PlRmzSG6o44?si=NLKlkkctIG10wYXW&t=728

alternatively:



TZP you said the video was not an esoteric hint about the game state but turns out it predicted exactly what happened

EDIT: if Rock had won I would have posted this: https://youtu.be/z53ImZFol-4?si=FIxFQjDXcwPFUv03&t=87
and if Scissors had won I would have posted this: https://youtu.be/lUmypC2aQi0?si=DfoWu5ClmbaKYrL5&t=48
#15
overall I'm proud of how BDS Toby and I played that but I also want to say that I think we just got insanely lucky at so many points

one thing about this setup is that it felt super likely to end up in a kitb against another team (e.g. a 2v2 or 1v1) at some point, and I think if anything had gone even slightly more wrong then we would have had to rely on a KitB to win

Quote from: SpecsFlyer17 on April 30, 2024, 09:40:41 PMI wish I would've heard from K-Night- that may have swayed my decision to go with Oricorio over davy.
I'm not sure if he would've responded to you if he was less busy but I did tell K-NiGhT not to engage with you

I also suspect that was davy's plan from the beginning: as the Rock Reviver, claim non-Reviver roles for Paper and Scissors, so that there's a chance other factions revive you